SK/Pal vs. Monk

[Claax]

I remember a time on live, I can't remember exactly what they changed, but during that time monks could tank as well as warriors I think. Those times are gone unless you're lower level with a fungi or something. There are a TON of monk twinks on this server. While I do think monks are kind of over powered(or maybe just monk weaps), the abundance of monk twinks and over camped monk items make it seem like we're more OP than we actually are IMO.

[Scavrefamn]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Apple/Orange vs. Banana

This is a good example of something people say when they have no valid argument to present.

[Kope]

Originally Posted by Grozmok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed.

However, you cannot deny that Monks are extremely powerful, enough so that they've been able to tank in groups at certain level ranges. So much so, that a tank is not 100% necessary.

I believe that was the point of the OP?

This was Not really meant as a "monks are OP" post, but I've seen many people have questions of the differences between the classes since they fill generally the same roles, with slight variations.

Monks are looked on as DPS, and an offtank if needed, but the best pullers.

SKs are looked on as tanks, and the 2nd best pullers, but not their utility outside of that.

Are those stereotypes correct? How does monk tanking actually compare to SK tanking? What about SK dps to Monk, is it that big of a difference?

General discussion questions, not meant as a troll or to say OMG OP, just a discussion for fun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

[Grozmok]

Originally Posted by Kope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Monks are looked on as DPS, and an offtank if needed, but the best pullers.

SKs are looked on as tanks, and the 2nd best pullers, but not their utility outside of that.

I'm not the p99 Shadow Knight spokesperson (if there even needs to be one) but IIRC, your first two statements are correct in accordance with my knowledge of the game between Kunark and Planes of Power.

Originally Posted by Kope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How does monk tanking actually compare to SK tanking? What about SK dps to Monk, is it that big of a difference

It think this is an avoidance (AGI) vs damage mitigation (AC) issue when talking about tanking with both classes (or any Monk vs. Plate wearer IMO). Without a hardcore mechanics person here to work out the math, I cannot tell you which is more viable. There are so many factors that alter the balance/outcome. Gear, HP per level per class, any other inherent AC tables that skew mitigation per class/level.

As far as pulling, I would say yes, Monk is the best in the game hands down. At 30 SKs get FD, which allows them to pull quite well, but not on the level of a Monk. SK FD is a spell, which requires casting, can be interrupted and is mana dependent (I died quite a bit overpulling Velk's lab on my 55 SK way back in the day due to that very issue, sliding ice notwithstanding).

PREFACE: I have no data to back-up these claims, this is purely anecdotal so take this information how you will and feel free to parse your own shit:

At just about every level Monk DPS wins.

An SK working all of his spells/abilities with a CoF + Noct Blade or Inny's Curse will not out DPS a Monk. That's just not what Verant originally intended, it wasn't part of the "Vision" of the game. Along these same lines, Monks being able to off-tank as good as a Hybrid wasn't their original 'job' per se and part of the "Vision" either.

I would bet dollars to donuts that it's more than likely an artifact of Verant trying to figure out what the hell they were doing and then tweaking shit as they went.

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[SirAlvarex]

Monks are, to my knowledge, on par tanking wise strictly due to having similar defensive skill caps. What *really* puts Monks over the top in Velious is all of the near weightless, high AC armor that drops from raid mobs.

It was sooo bad that Monks got hit with a mega nerf around Luclin's release. I want to say it coincided with the removal of class XP penalties, but I can't remember.

This is all conjecture, as I have no stats to back up my statements.

[Grozmok]

Is the nerf comes with Luclin, then I think it's safe to say that rolling a monk is sound advice for those looking to play a fairly broken class. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't mind, as I enjoy my SK for other reasons anyway.

[Schortt]

At 51+, assuming relatively similarly geared people, monks take less damage per swing than any class but a warrior using defensive/evasive. Stonestance is an amazing tanking tool and mend is handy as well, but the biggest reason for the dmg/swing disparity is that block is 2-3x better than parry - that's just how the skill is coded. This is offset by having a lower hp pool than any of the plate tank classes (CH efficiency is roughly the same for monks and SK/Pal and better for warriors) and also fewer options for aggro (though DPS+flying kick additional threat makes it pretty easy to tank).

Here's some data for you:

This comparison to some hybrids is with almost no discipline usage.
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This comparison is with me at 60 vs some 60 warriors (Joroz being an Iksar). I'm not sure what all the relevant stats are here, but I had ~3800 hp and not quite 1100 AC and Anthrax had ~5250 hp and I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 1200 AC. Joroz has significantly lower stats than Anthrax due to crappy gear availability for Iksar warriors but he was in evasive for most of the parse in which he's included (check out the number of misses). I was spamming stonestance pretty much every time I took aggro and it was available (note my much lower avg dmg per hit), while Anthrax was being a fat lazy ogre and not using anything (probably saving his disc's for island bosses).
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I have some parses comparing me and Talenos (60 ogre warrior) tanking General V'Ghera where he's in evasive and his numbers are just waaaay better than mine. If I get a chance I'll post them sometime.

Regarding damage, monks will outdamage all of the plate tank classes to a large degree excepting zerking warriors, who, when appropriately geared with large base dmg weapons, will outdamage all other melee classes including rogues. In Kunark this is largely due to the quality of weapons available. Wu's Fist of Mastery (16/22 1HB), Monk Epic fists (9/16 H2H), and Tranquil Staff/Ton Po's/Trorsmang (29/30, 45/40, 42/35 2HB) are just plain better than anything any other melee class has access to in Kunark. Flying kick damage is just icing on the cake. I regularly do 70-100 melee DPS on raid bosses using epic/Wu's (typically sharing top spot with other epic monks and rogues) while epic SKs are lucky to break 40 with a pet up (this is self reported DPS including spell damage). Paladins are worse off than SKs in the DPS department. Warriors tend to fare better but still rarely break 55DPS unless zerking.

[Kope]

Wow, that's some pretty incredible information. Thank you very much!

[Grozmok]

Wow, that's a shit load of information to digest. I wish I was a systems guy sometimes.

LOL

[Crimson Death]

So what your saying is:

Monk >

Unless you're MTing some raid level mob?