Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Main thing I gather, with the specific purpose of this thread in mind, is the Iksar or other non-Jaundice shaman can down the targets at approximately the same rate, just have to do a bit more work to do so. Bracer does make a good case for itself as a labor-saving device. The estimated 8-10 sec or so difference is close enough as to be not particularly significant. For the purpose of the casual reader that does count, I think, as broadly equivalent capability and should reassure the iksar player that he isn't seriously harming himself in not having that item.

For the purposes of this thread we did indeed answer OP's question on page 1:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As Toxigen said, JBB isn't necessary for any endgame content.

I still use mine at 60, JBB isn't just for powerleveling. Saving spell slots is always very nice on a Shaman.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - An example of using JBB on Cliff Golems. I did 5000ish damage with JBB, which is 1/6th of it's life.

The mathematical details of leveling with JBB https://project1999.com/forums/showp...&postcount=457 are presented to counter Troxx's incorrect idea that JBB is only good to level with from 45-51. Using PoM rat maze as an example shows JBB still has the edge over root rotting when it comes to leveling from 55-60, even when comparing an Ogre to an Iksar. JBB would be even faster on a Troll compared to an Iksar, since they get regen and JBB. Barbarian would be faster too with the XP bonus they get and JBB.

With that said, nobody should worry. If you pick a race that levels slower because you like the way they look, you are already satisfied with the tradeoff. All races can level to 60 just fine.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stuff stuff stuff stuff
Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
stuff stuff stuff stuff

Total HP Spent: 594
Total Mana Spent: 159
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 48 seconds to recover 168 mana and 288 HP.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Stuff stuff stuff stuff

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 663
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 663 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.
stuff stuff stuff stuff

Your analysis of the math that you did remains deeply flawed. The actual calculations (ie 132 seconds = 1320 damage at 10dps) seems to be just fine. Hear me out.
-We'll take your numbers at face value (well most of them)
-I won't dispute your DPS claims from deciding to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,...of_the_Scourge instead of a 1 hander and shield.
-We will ignore the flaws in your math regarding the expectations in the dps contribution from a dot proc on a weapon that bcbrown addressed here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446
-I won't even point out that your decision to NOT use a shield WILL mean that you WILL take more damage on average, over time, than if you had used a shield.
-I also will ignore the fact that when you attack a mob from the front you WILL take ripostes, which will cause you to take more damage and not clicking attack at all.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on all those actual things that your post glosses over. Let us simply look at the numbers you posted.

Note: I cut out large parts of your post and replaced with "stuff stuff stuff stuff" simply to save space. Let us simply look at your numbers.

Ogre fight:
Time: 132 seconds
Net health loss: 594
Net mana loss: irrelevant because it will take you longer to recover the health than the mana you spent.

At the end of the fight this Ogre shaman was down Five Hundred and Ninety-Four health. An Ogre shaman sitting on their keister with regrowth and a fungi tunic will regenerate exactly 36 health per tick. It will take 16.5 ticks of sitting down to recover 594 health. That's 99 seconds - not 48 seconds. If you stand up after 48 seconds of sitting down - you healed 288hp, not 594.

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling

The "last bit of HP" you are glossing over is actually more than half of the hp you lost. If you were to pull immediately at the end of each 180 second fight, you'd be losing close to 300 health per fight ... fight after fight. Remember, we're soloing here so this doesn't mean that you are at 100% health and 100% mana at the start of every fight and refusing to pull until you are again 100/100. You could start each fight at 90% ... or 80% health/mana. We're xp grinding here, not soloing WW dragons.

How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point?
Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds.
Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

Already did the dotting shaman math for you. Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 after the next mob is pulled/prepped with a portion of the surplus mana from the previous fight. Again, the pet is also regenning 45 health per tick and the shaman will be taking a few swings as first dot is landing and the first root cast is firing.

--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I will say that I am proud of you. You have actually wiggled on this. Your conclusions have already shifted quite largely - and this is highly unusual for you. Perhaps, unlike most DSM threads, progress has been made?

Your first analysis showed a big gap between the two favoring the JBB. I showed you math that proved you wrong. You adopted a different and more practical approach (ie the one I used to prove you wrong) while adding in the wild card of using the 2h proc weapon.

The result?

Well geeze-luhwheeze that massive gap you used to show ain't there anymore and now it's only 180 seconds vs 188 seconds ... never mind the fact that you're still glossing over the fact your JBB shaman is 300 health behind where he started ... ya know ... cause "I'll just regenerate that last bit of HP while pulling"

When you lost 594hp and only regenerated 288hp while meditating your mana, you're still 306hp in the hole. 306hp is technically a majority of the health (ie more than half) you lost in the fight, not just a "last little bit of HP".

At 60 you may look at 306hp and say "well that's not much" .. but dig deep and remember those days before torpor. Thats a substantial amount of hp to lose per mob when grinding xp. Even counting the hp you do regen back while getting the next mob in camp ... 8-10 mobs into your xp grinding session you are going to find yourself at a state of:

Mana = neutral
HP = almost completely out

Sooner or later you will have to take either one really long ass break ... or you will have to admit that the actual fight to fight recovery time is a full 51 seconds longer than you care to admit currently.

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.

Troxx is flailing, as usual. Remember when you said this earlier?

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1-59 you never should be full health when things are happening. If you’re full health, you’re converting it to mana. If you’re full mana, you should be doing something with that mana.

A smart Shaman pre Torpor is not getting to 100% HP and Mana before pulling. You are just padding recovery time in a sad attempt to win. Why would the Shaman wait the full amount of time when they are getting 33 HP/tick while standing?

The JBB Shaman only needs 8 ticks to recover the remainder with their regen while standing. In a place like PoM rat Maze you can often times run around for 30 seconds or more before finding the next rat and bringing it back to your pet. The respawn time is 72 minutes in PoM, and spawns are somewhat far apart often times.

You also forget that a JBB Shaman can cast a 30 mana root and have their pet tank for a few ticks. Root will break from JBB, but you only need a small respite. You yourself advocated for the 30 mana root! Two ticks from regen and 12 seconds of not taking damage would be 180 hp recovered when needed. That single root from time to time will not affect your overall progess, as you are also recovering 10 mana a minute while running around pulling.

Mic drop indeed. You have tried to do math this thread, which is an improvement. You even stopped trolling from time to time. Thanks! But you still lost. Please admit it for once. You are the one who never admits to being wrong.

[Infectious]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your analysis of the math that you did remains deeply flawed. The actual calculations (ie 132 seconds = 1320 damage at 10dps) seems to be just fine. Hear me out.
-We'll take your numbers at face value (well most of them)
-I won't dispute your DPS claims from deciding to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,...of_the_Scourge instead of a 1 hander and shield.
-We will ignore the flaws in your math regarding the expectations in the dps contribution from a dot proc on a weapon that bcbrown addressed here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446
-I won't even point out that your decision to NOT use a shield WILL mean that you WILL take more damage on average, over time, than if you had used a shield.
-I also will ignore the fact that when you attack a mob from the front you WILL take ripostes, which will cause you to take more damage and not clicking attack at all.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on all those actual things that your post glosses over. Let us simply look at the numbers you posted.

Note: I cut out large parts of your post and replaced with "stuff stuff stuff stuff" simply to save space. Let us simply look at your numbers.

Ogre fight:
Time: 132 seconds
Net health loss: 594
Net mana loss: irrelevant because it will take you longer to recover the health than the mana you spent.

At the end of the fight this Ogre shaman was down Five Hundred and Ninety-Four health. An Ogre shaman sitting on their keister with regrowth and a fungi tunic will regenerate exactly 36 health per tick. It will take 16.5 ticks of sitting down to recover 594 health. That's 99 seconds - not 48 seconds. If you stand up after 48 seconds of sitting down - you healed 288hp, not 594.

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.



The "last bit of HP" you are glossing over is actually more than half of the hp you lost. If you were to pull immediately at the end of each 180 second fight, you'd be losing close to 300 health per fight ... fight after fight. Remember, we're soloing here so this doesn't mean that you are at 100% health and 100% mana at the start of every fight and refusing to pull until you are again 100/100. You could start each fight at 90% ... or 80% health/mana. We're xp grinding here, not soloing WW dragons.

How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point?
Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds.
Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

Already did the dotting shaman math for you. Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 after the next mob is pulled/prepped with a portion of the surplus mana from the previous fight. Again, the pet is also regenning 45 health per tick and the shaman will be taking a few swings as first dot is landing and the first root cast is firing.

--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I will say that I am proud of you. You have actually wiggled on this. Your conclusions have already shifted quite largely - and this is highly unusual for you. Perhaps, unlike most DSM threads, progress has been made?

Your first analysis showed a big gap between the two favoring the JBB. I showed you math that proved you wrong. You adopted a different and more practical approach (ie the one I used to prove you wrong) while adding in the wild card of using the 2h proc weapon.

The result?

Well geeze-luhwheeze that massive gap you used to show ain't there anymore and now it's only 180 seconds vs 188 seconds ... never mind the fact that you're still glossing over the fact your JBB shaman is 300 health behind where he started ... ya know ... cause "I'll just regenerate that last bit of HP while pulling"

When you lost 594hp and only regenerated 288hp while meditating your mana, you're still 306hp in the hole. 306hp is technically a majority of the health (ie more than half) you lost in the fight, not just a "last little bit of HP".

At 60 you may look at 306hp and say "well that's not much" .. but dig deep and remember those days before torpor. Thats a substantial amount of hp to lose per mob when grinding xp. Even counting the hp you do regen back while getting the next mob in camp ... 8-10 mobs into your xp grinding session you are going to find yourself at a state of:

Mana = neutral
HP = almost completely out

Sooner or later you will have to take either one really long ass break ... or you will have to admit that the actual fight to fight recovery time is a full 51 seconds longer than you care to admit currently.

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I guess this means DSM is the troll and uses napkin math to convince himself he is right.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Infectious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess this means DSM is the troll and uses napkin math to convince himself he is right.

Incorrect. Troxx is the one who did that, by pretending that he didn't claim earlier that Shamans should never be at 100% HP and Mana before they get Torpor. This is correct, but he cannot then turn around and claim a JBB Shaman who is leveling must sit and wait to recover until 100% HP when they have Regrowth + Fungi Tunic, which is 33 HP per tick standing. He is contradicting himself to pad for time, because he cannot admit when he is wrong. Troxx also continues to completely ignore root breaks, spell resists, missing sitting ticks in combat, and occasional damage taken by the DoTing Shaman, which increases their overall time too. He cannot simply assume the worst case for JBB Shamans, while assuming the best case for DoTing Shamans.

Just to put the final nail on the coffin, I'll adjust this a bit to ensure Troxx doesn't try and weasel his way out. When I was in PoM Rat maze I never needed to actually use a root on occasion to heal, as the pull times allowed me to fully recover between fights.

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake.

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 189
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling. Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 75 Mana spent on Chloroblasting the pet every other fight
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 738
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 738 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of pet HP while pulling. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency.

This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc.

Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.

[Duik]

Someone needs to pick up all dem mics.

[Ripqozko]

I feel bad for kittens having to deal with DSM on the daily

[Troxx]

lol so we have gone from:

-JBB is the undeniably faster and the math irrefutably proves it!

To …

-JBB is 180 seconds and I’ll ignore I’m still missing 300hp and dot is 188 seconds

To …

-they’re both 188 seconds!


———————
———————————

I’m so proud of you DSM. You are showing an extraordinary amount of personal growth.

Keep it up!

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am perfectly fine with you using any math terminology you want. Claiming that I don't like math terminology is just silly, and sounds like an insult.

Fair enough, it does sound a bit like an insult. I'm just responding to what you said previously:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Third, his math is not actually impressive, as he makes mistakes often. His tactic is to use math terms that most people don't know in an attempt to impress.

I took that as insulting, and responded in kind. But I do try my best to avoid personal insults, so I apologize for the passive-aggressive phrasing.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have a pattern of pushing back on my points, while never pushing back on other people's points. I don't mind the push back, but I find it odd you ignore all of the mathematical flaws in Troxx's post or others posts on a consistent basis. If you were being unbiased and genuinely trying to find the answer to the problem, you should statistically push back on other posters occasionally.

You're right, I do almost exclusively respond to you on this forum. That's for a couple of reasons. First, you're one of the very few people to provide mathematical reasoning, and as I really really like math, I sometimes get excited about the opportunity to apply math to a video game I quite enjoy. Second, I find your math to frequently contain mistakes, and my inner pedant feels compelled to supply corrections. Third, I suspect that you frequently work backwards from conclusion to reasoning; for example, I pointed out that you forgot to take into account around 6300 mana from meditating for the root rot approach, which changes the conclusion from 11781 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 (JBB) to 18081 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 (JBB). Instead of accepting that conclusion, you changed the scenarios in order to continue showing the JBB strategy as better. That really bugs me.

But if you ever come across someone using mathematics and you'd like me to provide a close reasoning to confirm accuracy, I'm always willing to do so. Just shoot me a DM.

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Jesus christ.

Mr brown is the most placating human on the boards. Yet you find fault in his approach to you.
He is (could have been before that post) virtually your best friend here.

Cheers mate!

But, he's right; I've earned his distrust. It's true that I almost solely respond to him, almost always disputing something he said, and I have indeed at times been snide, churlish, insinuating, even acrimonious, disputatious, impudent, peevish, truculent, and certainly unrelenting. But hopefully not too often sanctimonious or disparaging.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At least you have the courtesy to always act like a troll though!

Would you prefer I cease my attempts at constructive engagement?

Regardless of how you may feel about me, I decided to go ahead and do the math of the actual expected DPS of the Scourge proc, and it came out lower than I expected - 0.75 DPS. I can provide the calculations if you wish - it's a little hairy, so the skeptical eye of someone with some mathematical facility would be quite welcome.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol so we have gone from:

-JBB is the undeniably faster and the math irrefutably proves it!

To …

-JBB is 180 seconds and I’ll ignore I’m still missing 300hp and dot is 188 seconds

To …

-they’re both 188 seconds!


———————
———————————

I’m so proud of you DSM. You are showing an extraordinary amount of personal growth.

Keep it up!

You clearly didn't read my last post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=465 - I made a minor adjustment by adding a single root into the equation to reduce the damage taken to 150, which is easily recoverable while pulling. You cannot claim that Shamans should not be at 100% HP while also claiming they must sit and recover to 100% HP before you get Torpor. I personally never needed to use root while in rat maze to fully recover between pulls. You are also ignoring all the factors that slow down the DoTing Shaman to make them look better.

Unlike yourself I have always been able to adjust to the data. Will you actually have some personal growth and admit you were wrong, instead of continue to troll? In the end you were still wrong. JBB even in an Ogre's hands is still better for leveling from 45-60 when taking into account spell resists, root breaks, damage taken from root breaks, etc. For yourself who has a troll, JBB would be even faster than DoTing. Your claim that it is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is still false. You have yet to prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

for example, I pointed out that you forgot to take into account around 6300 mana from meditating for the root rot approach

You did point out a flaw in my math, and I appreciate that! I also admitted I was wrong there, contrary to the strawman claiming I never do so. But you tend to ignore when I do the same thing to your math. The fact that you are often using averages incorrectly is something you tend to do, but don't want to admit for some reason. If this was a fair exchange, you would also improve yourself. This is why I say your math isn't that impressive. You are making mistakes too, and you are refusing to admit them. Combined with your insistence that you seem to be better at math than others, it comes off very arrogant.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would you prefer I cease my attempts at constructive engagement?

I would prefer if you were consistent. Ignoring all other posters and focusing on me tends to support the trolls who are doing the same thing, which isn't helping these forums or the discussion. If Troxx has a flaw in their math, then point it out so it doesn't look so one sided. He factually had flaws in his math too, which were ignored by yourself. In the end Troxx was still wrong, but you didn't help him at all in showing him why he is wrong.