Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, the summary precludes the rest of the article lol. Did you actually read it? I provide a number of maths and videos to back up my claims. Anything specific you disagree with, besides your opinion I am wrong?

No, I didn't bother to read it because for one, the summary told me everything I needed to know. For two, your idiocy has already wasted enough of my time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, I didn't bother to read it because for one, the summary told me everything I needed to know. For two, your idiocy has already wasted enough of my time.

Come back after you have read it, and have actual points to argue. I appreciate your honesty at least. You aren't hiding your obvious bias against me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] That bias does nothing to prove your point that I am wrong, however.

[Saisu]

DMN, lay some knowledge on me. Is the general argument races are functionally exactly the same with no “best”? Is he vastly underestimating the benefit of racial regen?

As someone without a Shaman, I’m not sure what your counterclaim is or where the disagreement is? Is this just some personal beef between the two of you, bad blood in the past?

[Danth]

Even if it were just his opinion (it isn't, there's a lot of raw data in there in addition to some opinion), have you guys read some of the other guides on the wiki? Shouldn't be overly hard on him simply because you differ from his conclusions. At least, not here--use the other thread for that. By wiki standards it's a perfectly fine guide and no less subjective than many others.

EDIT: In response to the above post, the fundamental issue is that either the ogre racial or troll regen are both so largely inconsequential to an established level 60 Shaman that the P99 community can't agree on which is ultimately "better." Pick one or the other but either way it's splitting hairs. To his credit Shamwowi mentions that in his guide.


Danth

[rabids]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Post after Post you ignore what people say to you, including myself.

Totally agree with you Baler. I also tried to discuss seriously with DeathsSilkyMist. After a lot of posts where he ignored some points and seemingly on pupose misunderstood or focused on absurd details on most of the other arguments I just assumed DeathsSilkyMist was a troll (I do love that he is trolling about trolls though!) and stopped reading his posts.

Anyone that wants to make up their own minds about this can just read the other thread and decide for yourself what you think.

Im not going to be drawn into the discussion again, but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence😂

Cudos for spending so much time on it though! Its not often I see someone go to such lengths to be right...

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Saisu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DMN, lay some knowledge on me. Is the general argument races are functionally exactly the same with no “best”? Is he vastly underestimating the benefit of racial regen?

As someone without a Shaman, I’m not sure what your counterclaim is or where the disagreement is? Is this just some personal beef between the two of you, bad blood in the past?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=361266

Feel free to read the massive recent thread on this. At least 4-5 people have just stopped talking to the OP, not because they felt he was right, but because when they realized the length that he would go to defend his ogre bias, they realized they had already wasted enough time with it.

He’s definitely one of the most well disguised trolls I’ve seen on these forums, I’ll give him that.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Saisu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DMN, lay some knowledge on me. Is the general argument races are functionally exactly the same with no “best”? Is he vastly underestimating the benefit of racial regen?

As someone without a Shaman, I’m not sure what your counterclaim is or where the disagreement is? Is this just some personal beef between the two of you, bad blood in the past?

Again, you can read that other thread. The dude is a consummate liar who pretends to be some sort of arbiter of truth/facts. Only his version of things matter or are considered "fact" or "evidence", despite his entire inability to produce a single shred of evidence that FSi has ever helped him even just once in his entire existence as an ogre shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even if it were just his opinion (it isn't, there's a lot of raw data in there in addition to some opinion), have you guys read some of the other guides on the wiki? Shouldn't be overly hard on him simply because you differ from his conclusions. At least, not here--use the other thread for that. By wiki standards it's a perfectly fine guide and no less subjective than many others.

EDIT: In response to the above post, the fundamental issue is that either the ogre racial or troll regen are both so largely inconsequential to an established level 60 Shaman that the P99 community can't agree on which is ultimately "better." Pick one or the other but either way it's splitting hairs. To his credit Shamwowi mentions that in his guide.


Danth

Thanks Danth[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Totally agree with you Baler. I also tried to discuss seriously with DeathsSilkyMist. After a lot of posts where he ignored some points and seemingly on pupose misunderstood or focused on absurd details on most of the other arguments I just assumed DeathsSilkyMist was a troll (I do love that he is trolling about trolls though!) and stopped reading his posts.

Anyone that wants to make up their own minds about this can just read the other thread and decide for yourself what you think.

Im not going to be drawn into the discussion again, but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence��

Cudos for spending so much time on it though! Its not often I see someone go to such lengths to be right...

I find it odd that people think math and videos are not evidence. The game works on math[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Troll/Iksar Regeneration is 100% quantifiable at all times in the game. Not sure where the disagreement is here. Percentages are math, and the entire game works off of Percentages for most mechanics, including Frontal Stun Immunity. Having X% chance for FSI to trigger is exactly the same mechanic as X% chance for dodge to trigger, for example. The only difference is FSI isn't a skill, so there is no change over time in terms of how often it can trigger, based on skill level.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=361266

Feel free to read the massive recent thread on this. At least 4-5 people have just stopped talking to the OP, not because they felt he was right, but because when they realized the length that he would go to defend his ogre bias, they realized they had already wasted enough time with it.

He’s definitely one of the most well disguised trolls I’ve seen on these forums, I’ll give him that.

I am not sure why having a discussion is trolling lol. I am actually spending time and energy proving my points, whereas everyone else in the linked thread claims to be right, while not doing much to back it up. Why am I the troll when I try to prove why my points are correct?

EDIT: I also find it a little ironic that some of the people in that thread who have Troll Shamans are the ones claiming Troll Shamans are the best. However, the fact that they have a Troll Shaman is no indication of bias. Only me having an Ogre Shaman is considered biased. Very interesting[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you can read that other thread. The dude is a consummate liar who pretends to be some sort of arbiter of truth/facts. Only his version of things matter or are considered "fact" or "evidence", despite his entire inability to produce a single shred of evidence that FSi has ever helped him even just once in his entire existence as an ogre shaman.

Show me a lie I have told, and show why it is a lie, and not just you disagreeing with me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: here is one video showing proof of FSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU . Most of my videos on my channel show me in combat, FSI is working there too. Why don't you show one video where Troll/Iksar Regeneration ever helped you just once?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I keep asking, and get nothing.

[rabids]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I find it odd that people think math and videos are not evidence. The game works on math[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Troll/Iksar Regeneration is 100% quantifiable at all times in the game. Not sure where the disagreement is here. Percentages are math, and the entire game works off of Percentages for most mechanics, including Frontal Stun Immunity. Having X% chance for FSI to trigger is exactly the same mechanic as X% chance for dodge to trigger, for example. The only difference is FSI isn't a skill, so there is no change over time in terms of how often it can trigger, based on skill level.

You are proving my point with this reply here. It seems like you are willfully (or stupidly? You choose.) misunderstanding again. I said:

Originally Posted by Rabids

but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence

Notice the word AUTOMATICALLY. You reply as if I said that math and videos never can be proof and evidence. I know they *can* be, Im just saying that your videos and math isnt automatically proof and evidence, they are examples. If you were at all interested, you would have already know this, since I spent at least two posts talking with you about what qualifies as proof in the other thread.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure why having a discussion is trolling lol. I am actually spending time and energy proving my points, whereas everyone else in the linked thread claims to be right, while not doing much to back it up. Why am I the troll when I try to prove why my points are correct?

Everyone can see for themselves in the other thread if they are interested whether "everyone else claims to be right and doesnt back it up" or not. I think that we did back up our arguments, just that you for some reason or other ignored it, misunderstood it, focused on something else or just said that the argument was invalid (since you are the ultimate judge of whats valid or not). I feel that is a pretty good description of a troll.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: I also find it a little ironic that some of the people in that thread who have Troll Shamans are the ones claiming Troll Shamans are the best. However, the fact that they have a Troll Shaman is no indication of bias. Only me having an Ogre Shaman is considered biased. Very interesting[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont say that Troll is aways best for a torpor shaman. Im saying that it CAN be best for some players and Ogre can be best for others. You are on the other hand saying that ogre is best for every torpored shaman. I dont think any of us can say that and I would feel arrogant if I said something like that. Playstyles are different for a lot of us and if I feel that a troll is best for me at the moment (I do) that should be ok. I am probably biased, even though I feel like I have given lots of logical and objective arguments as to why I like troll the best. Its ok to be biased. You are the one that insist that you arent biased. That is the problem.

I am not going to go into the discussion about whether troll or orgre is best again. I dont care enough. Again, if someone is interested, its all in the other thread.

Originally Posted by Danth

Even if it were just his opinion (it isn't, there's a lot of raw data in there in addition to some opinion), have you guys read some of the other guides on the wiki? Shouldn't be overly hard on him simply because you differ from his conclusions. At least, not here--use the other thread for that. By wiki standards it's a perfectly fine guide and no less subjective than many others.

I agree with you Danth. Nothing wrong with writing a guide, and a lot of the guides are more or less subjective. I like it best when they are objective, when they cover even more of the other side of the argument (You would think that he would know what that is after so many pages of "discussing" it) or when they say they are biased. There are good guides and bad guides. I would call this an alright guide. Lots of work put into it and it will probably help new players decide on their race for a shaman. I dont really care what races new or old players choose.

What I take issue with is the way he is summing up a thread that I spent a lot of time participating in. I thought it was a genuine discussion with respect and interest in what others thought. After investing some time discussing with DeathsSilkyMist I felt trolled. That in itself isnt too bad, it was a really good trolling where I didnt even notice it for quite some time. What can you do after being trolled, just accept that you were fooled and move on. I am not mad about it, but its worth it to me to write a couple of posts giving my two cents.


PS. I cant say that DeathsSilkyMist wants to be a troll or not. Only he knows that. But if you sound like a troll and do the things trolls do, then I will call you a troll[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You might think that Ogre is the best race, but you are one of the best trolls I have met! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are proving my point with this reply here. It seems like you are willfully (or stupidly? You choose.) misunderstanding again. I said:

"but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence"

Notice the word AUTOMATICALLY. You reply as if I said that math and videos never can be proof and evidence. I know they *can* be, Im just saying that your videos and math isnt automatically proof and evidence, they are examples. If you were at all interested, you would have already know this, since I spent at least two posts talking with you about what qualifies as proof in the other thread.

Insulting people isn't proving any points. Saying I am stupid means nothing.

You are proving my point honestly. You keep suggesting my math and videos are not evidence, without actually explaining why. Of course not all evidence is equal. I never said otherwise. Just because evidence can be bad, it doesn't automatically make mine bad. Please show me where you disagree, so we can have a discussion. I really don't understand why people think that saying "You are wrong" is a good enough argument to disprove evidence. Show some of your own, to back up your claims.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everyone can see for themselves in the other thread if they are interested whether "everyone else claims to be right and doesnt back it up" or not. I think that we did back up our arguments, just that you for some reason or other ignored it, misunderstood it, focused on something else or just said that the argument was invalid (since you are the ultimate judge of whats valid or not). I feel that is a pretty good description of a troll.

So far, no one has provided evidence, or even shown any math that discredits mine. I am the only one so far to post actual examples, instead of just insisting my examples are real. I am not sure where you think the points you support were well proven in that thread. Everquest, like any other game, works with math and rule sets. This means there is an objective truth to how the game functions. Video games aren't mystical in any way. You can accurately quantify how the game works, as I have been doing.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont say that Troll is aways best for a torpor shaman. Im saying that it CAN be best for some players and Ogre can be best for others. You are on the other hand saying that ogre is best for every torpored shaman. I dont think any of us can say that and I would feel arrogant if I said something like that. Playstyles are different for a lot of us and if I feel that a troll is best for me at the moment (I do) that should be ok. I am probably biased, even though I feel like I have given lots of logical and objective arguments as to why I like troll the best. Its ok to be biased. You are the one that insist that you arent biased. That is the problem.

I didn't say you did[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I said some people. I never disagreed that other races can be the best at certain things, and that I even detail that in my guide lol. Ogres are the best overall Shaman, Trolls are the best Shaman Pre-Torpor, Barbarians are the best guild bot Shamans, and Iksars are the best Raid Only shaman due to their slightly better ability to mitigate damage compared to any other race. Overall best Shaman simply means FSI has the best bang for your buck if you have a general playstyle of Soloing, Grouping, and Raiding. I don't know why you think my guide is trying to force people to play a specific race. I never even claimed you can't prefer Trolls even if they are not the best race lol. I am just showing people the objective facts, so they can make the best decision for themselves.

Everyone is a little bit biased. My problem is people are using bias as an argument. Just because I have an Ogre Shaman, it doesn't automatically disqualify my evidence. I simply find it ironic people are using the bias argument here when Troll Shamans are also arguing that they themselves are the best[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with you Danth. Nothing wrong with writing a guide, and a lot of the guides are more or less subjective. I like it best when they are objective, when they cover even more of the other side of the argument (You would think that he would know what that is after so many pages of "discussing" it) or when they say they are biased. There are good guides and bad guides. I would call this an alright guide. Lots of work put into it and it will probably help new players decide on their race for a shaman. I dont really care what races new or old players choose.

What I take issue with is the way he is summing up a thread that I spent a lot of time participating in. I thought it was a genuine discussion with respect and interest in what others thought. After investing some time discussing with DeathsSilkyMist I felt trolled. That in itself isnt too bad, it was a really good trolling where I didnt even notice it for quite some time. What can you do after being trolled, just accept that you were fooled and move on. I am not mad about it, but its worth it to me to write a couple of posts giving my two cents.


PS. I cant say that DeathsSilkyMist wants to be a troll or not. Only he knows that. But if you sound like a troll and do the things trolls do, then I will call you a troll[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You might think that Ogre is the best race, but you are one of the best trolls I have met! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not trying to be disrespectful. The simple fact is most people in that thread have not done any work to prove their points, including yourself. If you have great evidence showing a Troll Shaman at their finest, I would love to see it, and have a discussion. I just find it odd that I am the bad guy here when I provide more evidence than other people.

I also find it odd that "Trolling" these days is disagreeing with someone. Not sure where that became the definition. If you think me sticking to my guns is trolling, then I disagree. I would honestly love to see a Troll Shaman come in here and drop some serious evidence. I doubt that will happen however, since Troll/Iksar Regeneration is quantifiable, so there isn't really any way around that. I have also shown plenty of examples as to why Snare Neck is very meh.

Thanks for taking the time though to write here, I appreciate it!