CoWorker said the border was at fault that non-vaxed ppl are dying

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Pulgasari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol at hiding from the cop monster like it's a velociraptor 😎

im stressed out waiting for a final part 3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be honest with you loramin I used to be a huge pro vaxxer. It took a personal experience where I had my baby boy die of sids 6 days after his 30 day vaccine appointment that it shook me and started making me question more. I too thought it best to trust the doctors. Now I know everyone loves to say coralation doesn't equal causation but perfectly healthy baby's don't just die and The vaccine insert did mention sids as a possible side effect.

Wow: I honestly can't even imagine that. I say this with no hyperbole, in absolute seriousness: experiencing the death of a child one of (possibly THE) worst experience a human being can live through. I'm truly sorry.

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now sure I'll admit nobody knows for sure if it was the vax that killed him but I believe it was. I also learned that you cannot hold vaccine manufacturers liable if a death occurs either or the hospital.

Well here's another thought experiment: what if it did kill him ... but it saved 50 other kids' lives? This actually gets to your next point.

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just want you to see that there are two sides to this and it feels unfair that my health concerns should go out the window for your health concerns. Where do we draw the line from my rights to your rights if not with our own bodies? Danth said something similar that resonated with me.

Exactly: even if your kid could be sacrificed to save fifty other children, you should have a right to say "fuck you fifty kids: my child isn't the trolley car problem" (a utilitarianism reference). Except ... then you have to look fifty other parents in the eye, knowing you killed their kids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It's not an easy situation either way.

Earlier, when I referenced libertarianism and the morality of looking after yourself, I wasn't playing devil's advocate: there is a strong argument to be made that relying on institutions (governments, hospitals, etc.) always leaves someone getting screwed over. By that logic, the government should only look after basic rights (eg. life and liberty), and stay out of everything else.

Which brings us full circle to the start: what if your actions lead to my loss of life? The classic example of this is freedom of speech: we all agree freedom of speech is nearly universal, until some asshole yells "fire" in a crowded theatre, and people die stampeding out. Then we punish the asshole in spite of their "free speech rights", because they violated someone else's right to life.

If someone yelled fire in a theatre and someone you loved died in the stampede, would you want them punished? Now, if someone doesn't get a vaccine, and kills someone you love, same question?

I think trying to draw that line reveals the trickiness. If you say "well the vaccine could kill me, yelling won't", you don't really solve the problem, because if the vaccine only has only a 1 in a million chance of death and a 50% chance of saving a life, I'd like to think we'd all agree you're a douchebag for not getting it. But conversely if your chance of saving a life is low, and your risk from the vaccine is high, the reverse must be true.

So again, I won't fight you on getting vaccinated; I haven't lived your life, and you clearly have some good reasons. But if we're talking how things should be, I'll always think saving (savable) lives is a good thing we should strive for, and I'll always believe we should rely on evidence and expertise over our guts.

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good chat loramin!

I felt the same [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

Originally Posted by mcoy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wonder how the results would differ if the Milgram experiment was repeated today.

-Mcoy

Heh, it really wasn't an experiment at all, and when actual scientists tried to reproduce his results, they couldn't:

In 2012 Australian psychologist Gina Perry investigated Milgram's data and writings and concluded that Milgram had manipulated the results, and that there was a "troubling mismatch between (published) descriptions of the experiment and evidence of what actually transpired." She wrote that "only half of the people who undertook the experiment fully believed it was real and of those, 66% disobeyed the experimenter".

Hopefully that gives you a little more hope in humanity [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

Jib that Logan Paul movie looked ... interesting. Don't think I'll be watching it, but fun premise.

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

america has the most mass shootings because we offer the most amount of freedom and people dont like each other very much.

the solution isnt to remove freedom.

What is the solution?

Look, I'll be the first to point out how much better gun violence is all over the world, and then at the same time say "we can't just fix things by getting rid of the guns here" ... because it's true. Whatever your feelings on the 2nd amendment, guns are a part of America, and aren't going anywhere.

But surely you agree mass shootings are a bad thing ... so if we can't remove the guns, and we certainly can't remove the freedom ... are you saying "fuck all the victims of mass shootings, they're just doomed", or are you saying you have a better suggestion to fix the problem?

[Jibartik]

I dont have a solution but that doesn't mean we go with yours [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But surely you agree mass shootings are a bad thing ... so if we can't remove the guns, and we certainly can't remove the freedom ... are you saying "fuck all the victims of mass shootings, they're just doomed", or are you saying you have a better suggestion to fix the problem?

Here's an idea, lets create really gnarly schools that like take kids away from their parents in marginalized neighborhoods where gun violence is a problem and puts them into re-education centers.

[starkind]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont have a solution but that doesn't mean we go with yours [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]



Here's an idea, lets create really gnarly schools that like take kids away from their parents in marginalized neighborhoods where gun violence is a problem and puts them into re-education centers.

This sounds a lot like dr evils solution (mine).

Worrying 4u jib.

[Robersonroger38]

There are meetings doctors have on the vaccines, that they want ever share with the public. That they know the kids or whoever it is with a low immune system has a chance to paralyze or even death, but that’s the risk there willing to take , because the chances are low.
If they was to share these meetings with the public, what parent with common cents would want to take that chance on there child or loved one getting injured.

I’m sure the wacko doctors will chime in on how this is fake news , believe what you want I’ve seen the meetings.

[Gatordash]

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be honest with you loramin I used to be a huge pro vaxxer. It took a personal experience where I had my baby boy die of sids 6 days after his 30 day vaccine appointment that it shook me and started making me question more. I too thought it best to trust the doctors. Now I know everyone loves to say coralation doesn't equal causation but perfectly healthy baby's don't just die and The vaccine insert did mention sids as a possible side effect.

Wife and I had two miscarriages which was brutal enough. Can't imagine what you went though.

Some light reading for anyone interested in vaccines and children. Just kidding its a study from the National Institute of Health so its kind of a crappy read with a lot of numbers and statistics. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[HalflingSpergand]

Darn guns damn anti vaxxers! If they would just cooperate i could continue being an arrogant prick know it all!

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by starkind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This sounds a lot like dr evils solution (mine).

Worrying 4u jib.

just saying if we're going with unconstitutinal solutions, the one that doesnt penalize the non offenders is as valid, or more valid [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It was really more of a, oh yeah, damn I guess there is no such thing as a solution, type answer.. because there is nothing you can say is more wrong about that solution, than taking away the rights of gun owners except that you just dont value the gun the way you do a child. But that is just your own opinion, the child is the actual killer in this scenario, so its better to remove the child and prevent the bad parenting to start with [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the real solution: wait for jesus 2 and no more satan vibes