Hardcore

[Lagaidh]

I've played and raided both games. There's just no question that EQ was more hardcore through Velious. Even if you break down the complexity for each game with pretty UML diagrams of the encounters and their solutions... EQ was chock full of new MMO players.

By the time WoW came out, there were guild and raid veterans who learned the content faster.

Hell, for the sake of argument, say WoW has technically more difficult content encounters. It's going to seem easier to a pile of veterans playing a new game.

My 2cp.

[Enderenter]

Originally Posted by Itchybottom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People keep bashing WoW (I'm not a big fan either), but I'd like to see all of the haters make their own guild in WoW from scratch and succeed at a technical raid encounter like Kel'Thuzad or C'Thun at the original gear/content level. The hardest thing in EQ Velious is probably Avatar of War (Vulak isn't that bad, and Kerafyrm has no loot table.) Which can be compared to basically Golemagg in difficulty.

I think many people's primary issue with WoW (and certainly my own) was the lack of innovation. Blizzard has had this problem for many years now. They don't innovate, they just copy from other games and use their brand name to sell a lot of copies.

I played WoW pre-expansion (quit before Burning Crusade) and hit level 60, raided MC and Onyxia (sp) for 2 weeks in my guild then quit out of boredom. WoW offered nothing in terms of PvE innovation.

[Overcast]

Originally Posted by Lagaidh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hell, for the sake of argument, say WoW has technically more difficult content encounters. It's going to seem easier to a pile of veterans playing a new game.

My 2cp.

Sort of.
There's one big core difference.

No matter WHERE you wipe in WoW - the only thing you ever risk at all is a repair bill. Ever. You wipe in the hardest instance even if it's brand new and you've never been there... you just hit a soul rezzer at the very worst. But really, it's just a matter of running back to the instance. Even in the new XPAC - this will not change.

That - to me - is where the big separation is. In the 'risk' factor of the two games. Any class in WoW can 'gate' and get their corpse back without any issues.

Right now on P99 and even moreso in Kukark - there's no soul rezzers. You must go back in and get your corpse or find someone who can summon, and that's not too cheap..

Other than classic EQ - is there *any* MMO on the market that offers a TRUE risk because of a bad decision? Not really.

[Messianic]

I'll dissent and argue that WoW created more viable play styles through talent trees and specs than any previous mmo, hands down. It was even to the point where there really wasn't a "single PvP spec" for most classes - if you've ever tried to take an Arathi Basin flag from a defensive spec warrior, you know what I mean. The different specs actually created very different playstyles and classes.

In EQ, a rogue is a rogue, a warrior is a warrior, a wizard is a wizard, and so on. In WoW, one of the first things I immediately determined when facing someone in PvP was their spec. That told me everything about the tools they had available, weaknesses, strengths, etc. In some cases it meant I needed to avoid that person altogether because their spec was so well-suited against my class/spec, but if they were a different spec, I would wipe the floor with them. See Shadow spec Priests in Vanilla.

WoW did go down the mudflation route, where entire swaths of the game in terms of gear become irrelevant....but I think Blizz has been pretty intelligent for the most part, despite major blunders.


WoW still had better solo PvP play (at least in BC and before) than any other game I have ever played, and was the most involving game in that respect, of all time. Going like 50-0 in Alterac Valley as a Hunter, or 33-3 as a rogue in Arathi Basin were some of the best gaming times i've ever experienced, especially because my gear was garbage.

I enjoyed PvE on EQ far more, however, and thoroughly enjoy the relative difficulty of EQ. Plus the fact that p1999 is free =)

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by Enderenter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think many people's primary issue with WoW (and certainly my own) was the lack of innovation. Blizzard has had this problem for many years now. They don't innovate, they just copy from other games and use their brand name to sell a lot of copies.

I played WoW pre-expansion (quit before Burning Crusade) and hit level 60, raided MC and Onyxia (sp) for 2 weeks in my guild then quit out of boredom. WoW offered nothing in terms of PvE innovation.

Good post. I agree in almost all counts - but I really enjoyed how they blended spells/skills across their games.

The only PvE innovations WoW offered was 1) everyone could solo very effectively if they had half a brain, yet grouping was still better exp and required a small degree of skill, and 2) they managed to create a lot of fun and unique 10-20 man experiences prior to WoTLK. They saw the 40-man raid thing get boring very fast in vanilla, so they innovated.

Instanced dungeons (with very simple ways of resetting spawns) made farming easymode, though...

[Enderenter]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll dissent and argue that WoW created more viable play styles through talent trees and specs than any previous mmo, hands down. It was even to the point where there really wasn't a "single PvP spec" for most classes - if you've ever tried to take an Arathi Basin flag from a defensive spec warrior, you know what I mean. The different specs actually created very different playstyles and classes.

That's true. However, because Blizzard is so awful at balancing that at various points after class talent tree remakes one specific tree was far and away better than the others. This may not have happened at every class remake but it happened more often than not. Cookie-cutter minimaxxed builds were commonplace in WoW. And your argument really only holds water for PvP anyways - and no one in here will argue that EQ was ever about PvP. (even the EQ PvP servers were more about griefing than PvP)

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Instanced dungeons (with very simple ways of resetting spawns) made farming easymode, though...

True, in my comments about lack of innovation I forgot about instances. I think instances were the one major innovation that WoW added, and actually one of the worst things about the game vs. EQ's model. It's definitely true that both games (and every MMO I have seen/played) are to some extent about acquiring gear. The difference is that in WoW everyone could acquire the non-raid gear very, very easily - and in EQ it was much more difficult. (also because in WoW almost everything was no-trade upon equipping or looting the item)

[Messianic]

Good clarifications.

Instancing was a downside of WoW, although it was probably a boon for its customer service/GM sector.

Having to battle for drops and make sure you're up earlier or there before the other guy made it a serious challenge...It does create evercamp situations for excessively good loot or loot that has an effect/stats that are uncompared with others, i.e. FBSS, the only worn haste item that doesn't require you to kill some insanely strong mob in a raid situation (save the Mith 2hander, but that doesn't allow you to use a diff weapon with the worn haste). That's why frenzy was/is incessantly camped until Kunark and Velious, and even then some...

If it was WoW, everyone and their mom would have one, even though the item would be no drop...

[Reiker]

Originally Posted by Itchybottom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's any MMO though. Everything in EverQuest (and World of Warcraft) is simply get better gear, tank, and spank. Fail? Get more numbers. That's just the way these games are designed. It wasn't until PoP that EverQuest became a pain in the ass raid-wise.

I'd pay good money to send a group of 60+ WoW players back in time against the Avatar of War and see how long it takes for them to master defensive tank switching and CH chain juggling. Not to mention fights like Seru and Emp Ssra. While pre-PoP EQ raids aren't gimmicky like WoW, they more than make up for it in sheer brutality.

People exaggerate about how easy WoW is. But when you look at it in proper perspective you'll see why. I never played vanilla WoW which as I understand was when the game was hardest and at its most "EQ-like," however I was in a casual raid guild in TBC. We weren't even in the Black Citadel (or whatever the Illidan raid instance was called) before the Sunwell patch (I quit before the pre WOTLK patch that made the raids easier). But throw this same guild into PoP-era EQ and they'd have trouble breaking into ntov, 2 expansions behind.

[Malrubius]

Bleah, WoW *is* too easy, it really is. I'll cut-and-paste an earlier post...

The game was just too freaking easy, starting at level 1.

I am totally serious that I spent the first 20 minutes in the game trying to figure out how to turn off what I thought were tutorial question marks above the NPC's heads.

And for those who only list raid mobs and other high-end encounters as what is difficult about WoW - you just made my point even clearer.

Sure, most gaming companies could make an easy, WoW-like, game, and then add a boss mob (or 100 boss mobs) at the end-game with a gazillion hitpoints, 10 heads, and an attitude. But that doesn't change the fact that it is an easy game.

[Messianic]

You're completely accurate...WoW was difficult and a lot of fun (particularly on PvP servers) during Vanilla. Most of the best gear was only available to raiding guilds who could handle high-end content, so they griefed everyone, and there were some classes (Rogues) who could own everyone without any effort.

But for all of that, WoW was a pushover compared to EQ. Dying in WoW means losing time in the future because of recoup time. Dying in EQ means losing time in the past and more time in the future than even WoW costs...

It's why I stopped visiting the WoW forums - only to hear people whine and complain, and to see easymode gear given out after WoTLK...It wasn't fun anymore except for the occasional PvP, but everyone outgeared me and had nearly 2x my hp, so it was futile at that point unless I wanted to do pickup 5-10 mans all day, and i simply wasn't up for that.