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  #51  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:35 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I am saying that if you choose to focus on platinum rather than experience, it's not that hard to buy a few lower tier raid items, thus making the lack of good Velious caster gear relevant.
This line of discussion started with this:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...7&postcount=35

You advised the OP that necros are sustained ďbottom dpsĒ without charm. That simply is not the case. Or should we consider them bottom dps because every melee should be expected to farm large sums of platinum and buy a ST key and a primal weapon from Aftermath?

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Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Everything you write, like magicians doing 120 dps or necros doing lots of CC, makes perfect sense if you spend your time in mid 50s PUGs with 50% downtime. None of it makes any sense in good groups, say 20% or less downtime, at higher level areas like the spore king, Siren's Grotto, juggs, HoT, etc.
Have you forgotten your audience? The very first line of the very first post by the OP.

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Originally Posted by brokenpromise [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I will be mostly a filthy casual
Performance in a mid 50ís PUG is a lot more relevant to the OP then how you stack up to a velious raid geared monk with Vulak weapon while farming HoT with a single group.

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Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
120 sustained dps from a 58 mage on juggs and shrooms? i doubt it
Youíre right, I misspoke. My mage hasnít been beyond Crypt/Emp levels in seb. When you think about it that camp in particular isnít the best example as depending on the cadence of the group you can easily end up with staggered spawns and unexpectedly high amounts of down time.

Higher level frogs/shrooms and juggs - 120 ainít gonna happen.
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  #52  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:35 PM
Raev Raev is offline
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Actually the OP stated he mostly planned to solo, so I suppose none of this is that relevant to him. Fuck off OP.

It's silly to write off the endgame performance of a class. I guess you get your guys to 60 and then are mostly finished with them? Nothing wrong with that, but most people are going to want at least basics like their epic and a set of HOT gear, or will want to farm up some platinum for a twink. And the endgame performance of Necromancers just isn't great in my experience.

But hey, you could always post some parses and prove us wrong!
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Last edited by Raev; 07-18-2018 at 10:39 PM..
  #53  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:59 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
It's silly to write off the endgame performance of a class.
Look man, I'm not trying to write off the end-game performance of a class. Bleeding edge single group content (Ie HoT single grouped, SG, Juggs) isn't exactly a huge part of the game. It's the end of the road for a lot of folks and many who don't commit to hardcore raiding aren't going to be spending a significant portion of their time farming Juggs, HoT with a single group, or Sirens Grotto. Many of those who do the latter (HoT/SG) are sporting raid gear. As you've already mentioned, raid gear shifts the balance in a very significant way towards melee, and those really high end areas sport mobs with nasty high resistances, which further favors any melee over every caster with the exception of a class that can charm. Nobody is denying any of that.

For most players and for most of the time, focusing in exclusively on this content isn't really relevant to the broader discussion. On that note, disparaging "mid 50's PuGs" is pretty silly as every toon will spend most of their time in at this level of play. Until players hit that end of the line group content, pet Int classes do shockingly well across the board for raw damage output.


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Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I guess you get your guys to 60 and then are mostly finished with them? Nothing wrong with that, but most people are going to want at least basics like their epic and a set of HOT gear, or will want to farm up some platinum for a twink.
Like I said, I've been overseas for 6 years (will be back in the states in a few months). Euro and Asian time zones don't really allow for traditional raid progression as guildmates are generally asleep or at work when I have time to play. I have a professional career and a family, so I can't/won't engage in p99's preferred style of raiding which involves calls going out at odd times to mobilize. I carve out some me time to play and if something doesn't happen during that narrow window, I'm not available to participate.

I enjoy playing my 60s, but sitting around xp capped lfg for 1-3 hours before finding something productive to do (I don't need experience) isn't exactly fun - so alts enter the equation. I'll scout around for a bit and if I don't get any bites, I swap over to a character I can make progress with.

So yes, unfortunately I get to 60, get to coldainish level of content gear, and then that character has a tendency to start collecting dust.

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Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
And the endgame performance of Necromancers just isn't great in my experience.
From a raw dps standpoint, at that level of play damage potential comparatively does take a nose dive. 70-80 dps is nothing to sneeze at, but it's not going to keep up with raid geared melee. If you factor in other abilities the necromancer brings to the table, that performance is still pretty great.

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Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
But hey, you could always post some parses and prove us wrong!
My work day is just starting, I'll sift through logs when I get home. Want necro, mage, or both? Necro logs in particular will be more challenging to find accurate representations for dps as when I'm in a group I rarely get to focus exclusively on dps. Time spent rooting, healing, and on demand twitches group mates want all subtract time and mana from the equation. It's a rare thing to be in a group where my only job is dishing out damage, hence why I initially said I'd get new ones where I can focus on nothing but damage.

What is pretty consistent is the expected damage from the pet. In crappy/low places like KC the 53 rog pet is close to 60 sustained dps. In places like seb it's in the 50 range for standard areas and 40-45 on the very high level mobs with a tank who knows how to position. From there, it's not hard to calculate sustained dps potential with absolutely zero down time (it's just math). Every extra med tick or bit of down time shifts the balance more in favor of the caster.
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  #54  
Old 07-19-2018, 04:13 AM
brokenpromise brokenpromise is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Actually the OP stated he mostly planned to solo, so I suppose none of this is that relevant to him. Fuck off OP.

It's silly to write off the endgame performance of a class. I guess you get your guys to 60 and then are mostly finished with them? Nothing wrong with that, but most people are going to want at least basics like their epic and a set of HOT gear, or will want to farm up some platinum for a twink. And the endgame performance of Necromancers just isn't great in my experience.

But hey, you could always post some parses and prove us wrong!
/chortle I'm sorry for all of this
  #55  
Old 07-19-2018, 06:52 AM
kjs86z kjs86z is offline
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How much does a ST key cost?
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  #56  
Old 07-19-2018, 07:30 AM
Para99 Para99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
How much does a ST key cost?
Not sure if this is the standard, but..
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Zlandicar's Talisman (Sleeper's Tomb Key) 300k includes a 2h primal loot right
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  #57  
Old 07-19-2018, 09:01 AM
Raev Raev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Want necro, mage, or both?
I'd be curious to see both, really, but in a tougher area since that's what I spent most of my time doing. The crypt is actually a pretty low level area; only the named are high level.
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  #58  
Old 07-19-2018, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I'd be curious to see both, really, but in a tougher area since that's what I spent most of my time doing. The crypt is actually a pretty low level area; only the named are high level.
My necromancer has been level 58 for over a year and I've got a 210MB log file. I'll dig deeper over the next few days but this was a pickup group on the bonus xp (4th July holiday extended weekend) that crawled from ABC to the bridge near NG back and forth. Not exactly high end seb, but still a higher kunark dungeon.

Group was:

-Monk:
Rukilz (pretty sure 57, though possibly 58) with Tstaff, epic, fungi, shaman 50% haste and I think 36% worn haste handling pulls/tanking

-Shaman
Donhoolio (57-58) canni-ing his ass off, slowing, buffing, and casting heals sporadically (not that often)

-Mage: (owner of Zarn an initially lowest summon level 57 earth pet and later Xonann a max summon 57 earth pet after I encouraged him to bail on the old pet). As you can see from his pet clocked in dps vs "sdps" he was generally slow to actually send pet in accounting for his pets doing less total damage despite doing more functional uptime dps than mine while in combat. His max summon pet should have parsed higher, but I assume that given his slow on the draw sending pet in that he did not actively refresh pet haste and his pet thus spent a sizable portion of the time without burnout. I proactively refresh haste when my count down timer hits 60 seconds. Some pet owners don't bother to do this, but every second your pet isn't hasted your pet is hitting 65% less frequently. I also don't know if he bothered to ask the shaman to str buff his pet either. I can't parse mage nukes or the impact of the DS.

-Necro: Me, 58. We had no mez, so I handled the cc with roots/ST. This took up more than a little bit of my time. Pet Kibobtik 53 rogue summon had the mob's ass maybe 60-70% of the time, so lots of lost backstabs. I was busy enough with CC (1-3 in camp at any given point in time) that it occupied a lot of my attention. No dots were used other than lifetap dot. At 58, most functional lifetap has a poor ratio and only hits for 330. Between that and casting tap dot at the start of fights as needed, that's where all my damage came from. Most of my time was spent handling CC and throwing heals around like crazy.


Combined: ** SEB crawl ABC to NG Bridge and Back on 7/7/2018 in 3230sec

Total
--- DMG: 449547 (100%) @ 139 dps (139 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 46429 @15dps

Kibobtik
--- DMG: 133583 (29.72%) @ 42 dps (41 sdps)

Rukilz
--- DMG: 126371 (28.11%) @ 39 dps (39 sdps)

Xonann
--- DMG: 87040 (19.36%) @ 47 dps (27 sdps)

Zarn
--- DMG: 53337 (11.86%) @ 41 dps (17 sdps)

Daegun
--- DMG: 47232 (10.51%) @ 15 dps (15 sdps)

Donhoolio
--- DMG: 684 (0.15%) @ 0 dps (0 sdps)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the healing covered while doing this?

--- DMG to PC: 46429 @15dps

Total healing delivered from myself?

Donhoolio received 20242
Rukilz received 13125
Pets combined received: 1125
Me: A lot. I was healing back the health I was tossing around with the taps and tap dots.

Regen:

Group stuck it out 84 minutes, so the monk (iksar with fungi and regrowth is 40 passive regen a tick) regenerated somewhere less than 33600 hp (he spent some but not most of the time full health).

Between the monk's passive regen and the heals I tossed him (math the above bolded/italicized/underlined numbers), the shaman didn't have to heal much at all and was free to canni near-continuously while I healed him as well.

Discussion:

Not super high level seb, and my attention was split. Gamparse can be buggy when compiling fights and there are moments I was out of melee parse range. This accounts for why all melee (pets included) have lower parse numbers than you'd expect for the gear, level, class, and content. If I can parse a pet, though, I can parse a player. Necro 53 pet at max summon with a mage haste mask, necro haste buff, and shaman str buff (this is more important than many realize) still managed to beat out the Tstaff epic monk (granted I can't parse his procs).

For all the flaws in parsing, you at least get an idea of how a properly buffed pet stacks up against a higher level melee character with a pretty good weapon. Anything the caster does to lay on the heat above and beyond the pet is just icing on the cake.

I leveled my necro up after my monk was already 50s. I parse a lot and keep Gamparse in heads up display mode for active real-time overlay superimposed on window. The 49 necro pet was a bit of a shocker as it was putting out damage that was uncomfortably close to what my 50s monk was capable of. The 53 pet made playing the dps role on my epic monk frankly depressing. The pet properly buffed could go toe to toe with my monk. I later leveled up my Magician - those pets are rock solid sustained dps. The biggest shocker was in upgrading from 54 water to 57 earth. The earth pet is a few levels higher and had a max quad that went from 56 to 70. Even without backstab or the rare nuke, the 57 earth pet is an absolute beast.

Anywho, I'll scrub my logs over the coming days and get some more parses out there.
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  #59  
Old 07-19-2018, 12:28 PM
Pint Pint is offline
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Bis rogues are about 120dps when they're trying
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  #60  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:01 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Bis rogues are about 120dps when they're trying
Which is why BiS rogues are at the top of the dps charts on raids and in groups when rabid charm pets arenít around.
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