Whats with the World of Warcraft Crowd?

[Pomaikai]

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Back in the day? As a ranger who only played into his 30's, the only negative thing I ever came across were the "Ranger Down..." jokes, and people trying to convince me I was a tank since I had taunt.

If anything we were considered aggro hogs due to the "Ranger Down..." jokes. I constantly found that I would peal aggro, even not being uberly geared. Of course this was back in 2001ish, where Twinks were few and far between.

I hate the XP penalty. I agree with those who say that knowing about the XP penalty breaks classicness. If anything, if they wanted to mimic classic they would randomize the XP penalty across all classes, and then tell people they removed it. It wouldn't mimic classic in that the XP penalties are different, but it would mimic everything else about XP penalties.

Or you know...juts remove them.

Most of that, as a Cleric, is when you were grouped with a player who played a Ranger poorly and had the mobs ping ponging back and forth between the tank and the Ranger. This is what we referred to as a "mana sponge". And yes, those Rangers died a lot. Usually because my attention was keeping the tank and CC alive, and the idiot Ranger who kept grabbing agro and getting beaten on was quite frankly not high enough on my list of players who I really needed to keep alive. On the other hand, a properly played Ranger is awesome to behold, but I still tease them good naturedly. It's a Cleric thing. What can I say?

[Raelador]

Originally Posted by Pomaikai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most of that, as a Cleric, is when you were grouped with a player who played a Ranger poorly and had the mobs ping ponging back and forth between the tank and the Ranger. This is what we referred to as a "mana sponge". And yes, those Rangers died a lot. Usually because my attention was keeping the tank and CC alive, and the idiot Ranger who kept grabbing agro and getting beaten on was quite frankly not high enough on my list of players who I really needed to keep alive. On the other hand, a properly played Ranger is awesome to behold, but I still tease them good naturedly. It's a Cleric thing. What can I say?

A bit testy are we?

[Radiskull]

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I hate the XP penalty. I agree with those who say that knowing about the XP penalty breaks classicness. If anything, if they wanted to mimic classic they would randomize the XP penalty across all classes, and then tell people they removed it. It wouldn't mimic classic in that the XP penalties are different, but it would mimic everything else about XP penalties.

Or you know...juts remove them.

Or, by this logic, they could just say they remove the exp penalty and leave it. This is even more classic then your solution. Am I right?

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by Pomaikai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most of that, as a Cleric, is when you were grouped with a player who played a Ranger poorly and had the mobs ping ponging back and forth between the tank and the Ranger. This is what we referred to as a "mana sponge". And yes, those Rangers died a lot. Usually because my attention was keeping the tank and CC alive, and the idiot Ranger who kept grabbing agro and getting beaten on was quite frankly not high enough on my list of players who I really needed to keep alive. On the other hand, a properly played Ranger is awesome to behold, but I still tease them good naturedly. It's a Cleric thing. What can I say?

I played a Cleric also for years on classic. I hated Rangers also. I call them a "Mana Sink". They are agro whores and just die way to often. And as a Cleric you hate to see anyone die but I just gave up worrying about Rangers in my groups. Go up on a hill and shoot arrows plz.

[Kriven]

I had a troll SK here, gave up in the mid 40's... due to the vast amount of LFG time (including running around/porting to different zones to shout lfg)...with many other hybrids around I think the main fear is having 2 hybrids in a group. I've grouped with a bard and ranger before and dear god, the pulls were great but the XP penalty was a killer.

Rarely AFK'd, was always happy to pull in the absence of a monk/bard, had a good reputation and enjoyed the group banter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Such a fun class, great aggro control and when groups were to be had the best time I had was playing a SK. Tempted to try again but rolled a cleric and trying to focus on him :P

Just typing this makes me want to try again [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[fischsemmel]

Originally Posted by Kriven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've grouped with a bard and ranger before and dear god, the pulls were great but the XP penalty was a killer.

Cleric, warrior, rogue, rogue, enchanter, shaman
vs.
Cleric, troll SK, rogue, ranger, enchanter, bard

The latter is going to need like 20-25% more xp for everyone to get 1 level than the former needs. That's not a difference you are going to "feel." You would need to keep an eye on % of level earned per hour with each of those groups in order to tell there was an xp earning difference.

But you state that the pulls were "great" in the group with the hybrids. Personally I wouldn't pulling in a group "great" unless it was at least 20-25% more/faster than "normal pulling."


And just for fun, let's compare a bit more.
Halfling cleric (.95), halfling warrior (.855), halfling rogue (.8645), halfling rogue (.8645), enchanter (1.1) , barbarian shaman (1.05)
vs.
Halfling cleric (.95), Troll SK (1.68), ranger (1.4), barbarian rogue (.9555), enchanter (1.1), bard (1.4)

5.684
vs.
7.486

Pros of former relative to latter group: 31% faster xp. Halfling rogue will outdamage ranger. Sham slow and melee buffs are better than bard/ench slow and melee bufs.

Pros of latter relative to former group: Tank has better aggro, more hp, more damage, SK spells, FD-pull potential, troll regen, slam. Ranger has an interesting mix of dps, tanking, and cc potential, though shouldn't really be relied on for any one of them too heavily. Barbarian rogue has better damage and slam compared to halfling rogue. Bard is tough to nail down... potentially allows ench to do massive dps with charm, significantly increases party mana and hp regen, and fills in a bunch of little gaps in CC, debuffing, buffing, and maybe DPSing.

Which group is better overall? Can you tell? Because I sure can't.

[Baervan]

Originally Posted by Raelador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If someone on this server denies you a group because you're a hybrid I would encourage you to post his/her name on the forums so we can bash them so hard for dissuading people from leveling on this great server.

Beovvulf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Radiskull]

Originally Posted by fischsemmel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pros of latter relative to former group: Tank has better aggro, more hp, more damage, SK spells, FD-pull potential, troll regen, slam. Ranger has an interesting mix of dps, tanking, and cc potential, though shouldn't really be relied on for any one of them too heavily. Barbarian rogue has better damage and slam compared to halfling rogue. Bard is tough to nail down... potentially allows ench to do massive dps with charm, significantly increases party mana and hp regen, and fills in a bunch of little gaps in CC, debuffing, buffing, and maybe DPSing.

Which group is better overall? Can you tell? Because I sure can't.

Warriors have more hp and dps then a shadow knight, and a good warrior doesn't have a problem with aggro with two rogues as the primary dps. I feel that hybrid tanks aren't that big of a deal in groups. I'd rather be killing with a hybrid tank then not killing without one. I, personally, always check for a warrior first, but never hesitate to invite a PAL or SK if they are what is available.

This isn't a race bonus conversation, it's a class one, so why bring up barbarian vs halfling rogue? Each group has an enchanter, tank, rogue and cleric, so we can call them a wash. So it becomes Rogue Shaman vs. Bard Ranger. Can you tell the difference, cause I sure can.

[fischsemmel]

Originally Posted by Radiskull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warriors have more hp and dps then a shadow knight, and a good warrior doesn't have a problem with aggro with two rogues as the primary dps.

At what point does a tank warrior with 30+ lower str and sta pass a tank SK in hp and dps? I was under the impression that those stats plus the SK pet and spells would more than make up for the warrior having a better damage table.

Originally Posted by Radiskull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't a race bonus conversation, it's a class one, so why bring up barbarian vs halfling rogue? Each group has an enchanter, tank, rogue and cleric, so we can call them a wash. So it becomes Rogue Shaman vs. Bard Ranger. Can you tell the difference, cause I sure can.

My bad, I was starting to feel like it was more a discussion of xp penalties than just hybrid xp penalties.

Fine then. Rogue shaman vs. bard ranger. The group with the two hybrids needs only ~13% more xp than the group without. 3 blues on a level. That's not a difference you can notice unless you're leveling under laboratory conditions.

And while the rogue brings more damage than the ranger, that's all he brings. And while the shaman buffs are amazing for melee and slow is awesome for everyone, not every group is stacked with melee and enc/bard slows are nothing to sneeze at, while the bard also brings some unique and powerful tools to the group (mana regen, resists, and a bit of everything else).

With good players behind each keyboard, at best you can't put your finger on which group is going to perform better overall just because one has ranger and bard and the other has any two non-hybrids. Though I'll admit that I'd rather have a bad rogue in my group than a bad bard or a bad ranger.

[Radiskull]

Originally Posted by fischsemmel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At what point does a tank warrior with 30+ lower str and sta pass a tank SK in hp and dps? I was under the impression that those stats plus the SK pet and spells would more than make up for the warrior having a better damage table.



My bad, I was starting to feel like it was more a discussion of xp penalties than just hybrid xp penalties.

Fine then. Rogue shaman vs. bard ranger. The group with the two hybrids needs only ~13% more xp than the group without. 3 blues on a level. That's not a difference you can notice unless you're leveling under laboratory conditions.

And while the rogue brings more damage than the ranger, that's all he brings. And while the shaman buffs are amazing for melee and slow is awesome for everyone, not every group is stacked with melee and enc/bard slows are nothing to sneeze at, while the bard also brings some unique and powerful tools to the group (mana regen, resists, and a bit of everything else).

You pulled the race card again... this isn't about race! I have NEVER heard anyone complain about race exp penalties. The day I see someone say "Man, this ogre exp penalty is bogus!", I'll eat my words, but until then, lets drop it. A shaman slowing for a halfling warrior vs an enchanter slowing for an ogre... I have no data to back this up, but I'd say at worst it's even, but still irrelevant since we aren't talking race.

3 blues at level 54+ is a lot of experience. And with 60 levels... 3 blues per level multiplied by 60 levels... you see where I'm going? Not to mention that you're killing slower because rogue dps > ranger dps, so kills per hour goes down, furthering the gap in experience gain. The point is, there is a reason for the discrimination. If rogues had the 40% penalties, and rangers the 10% bonus, people would invite more rangers. They bring LESS to the table (as a dps slot) and require more experience for everyone grouped with them, making them less desired.