most underpowered class in game?

[Fammaden]

The statement "DPS is unimportant" is obviously vastly overstated and nonsensical on its face, but as usual Shamwowi's actual point is better than his ability to deliver it.

His point being more that "optimized dps is not important" and that's more true. A suboptimal but reasonably balanced group can do probably 80% of the efficiency of a perfect composition for the given era, and that's really good enough for grinding xp when it comes to doing pick up groups.

However, I'd stand by what I said at the beginning of the thread, pre-Kunark rogues are VERY sub-optimal to the degree that it definitely does make a difference and I don't blame anyone for not really wanting them in groups if they had the choice on green.

Lacking the wider range of haste items, higher haste percentages, improved ratio weapons, and the massive boost of double backstab at 55+, I'm sticking with the rogue class as most underpowered in the classic/vanilla era.

A nearly completely group dependent class that generally slows groups down versus most other DPS options in the pre-expansion game, and needs a tank in group to function at all so all those pet-centric xp groups in sub-50 classic timeline don't have any use for you at all.

[Allishia]

All you need for dps is a good enc/nec with pet gear who knows what they doing /nod

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The statement "DPS is unimportant" is obviously vastly overstated and nonsensical on its face, but as usual Shamwowi's actual point is better than his ability to deliver it.

His point being more that "optimized dps is not important" and that's more true. A suboptimal but reasonably balanced group can do probably 80% of the efficiency of a perfect composition for the given era, and that's really good enough for grinding xp when it comes to doing pick up groups.

However, I'd stand by what I said at the beginning of the thread, pre-Kunark rogues are VERY sub-optimal to the degree that it definitely does make a difference and I don't blame anyone for not really wanting them in groups if they had the choice on green.

Lacking the wider range of haste items, higher haste percentages, improved ratio weapons, and the massive boost of double backstab at 55+, I'm sticking with the rogue class as most underpowered in the classic/vanilla era.

A nearly completely group dependent class that generally slows groups down versus most other DPS options in the pre-expansion game, and needs a tank in group to function at all so all those pet-centric xp groups in sub-50 classic timeline don't have any use for you at all.

The problem isn't the delivery of my point in most cases (not all, I do misspeak at times, and admit it when I do). The general problem is people on this forum prefer "gotcha" moments over real discussion. I never said "DPS is unimportant". You can check the post history. This is an oversimplification of my argument either due to lack of reading, or "gotcha".

This latest discussion about DPS started on page 31, where Zuranthium attempted to claim that Mages have high DPS, therefore they are much better than my previous assessment of the class. To which I responded:

Unfortunately in most solo/group situations utility is greater than DPS. It doesn't make mages any better. I'd take a Necro's utility over a Mage's DPS any day of the week. There is a reason why groups do not gear check members. DPS really isn't that important most of the time. If it was, you would get screened out of a group if your gear was bad while you were playing Rogue, Monk, etc.

When I say "DPS really isn't that important most of the time", that isn't me saying "DPS is unimportant and you can kill mobs without damage". There is a reason why I say "Isn't that important most of the time". In English that means it matters, but it isn't the primary factor. I don't believe I ever said "DPS is unimportant" flat out. I am sorry if people do not understand the difference between the two statements, or if they speed read through my posts.

I basically re-iterate this point multiple times in between page 31 and now.

[7thGate]

Well, it is true people don't gear check you. I leveled Jayya with ALS gear in probably 40% public/60% guild groups, and noone ever kicked me or even mentioned that I was swinging a Burning Rapier and Iksar Berserker Club around in my 30's.

That being said, its not just DPS that you don't need for a group. There's no real absolutely required role at all, though healing is close. I've been in plenty of groups that don't have tanks or don't have healers, and the ones with no tanks are fine but the ones with no healers tend to slow a lot.

Noone is going to gear check a tank for a group and one of the best groups I was ever in was just 5 rogues and a shaman aggro bouncing and slaughtering stuff over and over. One of the most fun events I've ever run was just an all-rogue group in Siren's Grotto whacking sirens one by one with a pocket factioned enchanter/cleric pair to patch up between kills and keep us buffed.

In any case, I would have to vote Shadow Knight. I think they have the least unique, useful niches out of all the classes. Mage might be a contender except for CotH, which by itself is incredible for getting people to a group/raid and pulling. Mages also get a boost for being really good at soloing.

Shadow Knight can still do cool stuff though, its just they kind of get overshadowed by Necros, Warriors or Paladins depending on what it is and don't really have a lot of truly unique things other than 1 or 2 AC debuffs.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But for the majority of that level range mobs have a really low HP pool, so gear suckage is irrelevant. You can burn through mobs in a group with bronze armor and mino axes lol.

This is completely wrong. You will kill VERY slowly with mino axes only.

A group of 5 Mages and 1 Healer will get at least 4x more kills than a group of 5 melee and 1 healer with that kind of gear. Or even just slotting 1 Mage into said melee group (which you could argue as being the more realistic scenario), you will see a big increase in kill rate.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have been in groups like that, and they were great. Sorry you suck.

In terms of gaining exp/farming, they were not "great". Maybe you liked the people you were playing with, maybe you had fun, but you factually were achieving far less gains. What everyone finds fun will vary, but I definitely do not find it fun to be extremely inefficient in a game like this that is already a big timesink.

When I started EQ in 1999 and was a Shaman and would group with 5 Warriors out in the Everfrost tundra, that was actually some of the most fun I've had, because of how new and dangerous it all was, and how it was a normal thing to be doing at the time (and also because the group was totally dependent on me for heals). But now? Pretty much everyone knows how to level faster and where to farm and how to avoid danger better. At the higher levels where it becomes increasingly difficult to make progress, it is INCREDIBLY boring to play this game without aiming for good efficiency, trying to pull as much as possible and get as many kills as possible, which also re-invites a chance of danger if the group overextends on its resources.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The flaw with this argument is you don't seem to understand that a lot of games DO have DPS checks. In those games, if you don't meet the DPS check, you don't get to do the content. Period.

P99 doesn't work this way. Gear checks don't happen, because it doesn't really matter. If DPS mattered, group compositions and gear requirements would be much stricter across the board when doing public groups.

Again, gear checks do happen. It's not the norm, but I usually asked melee what weapon they have when forming a group. If they had a shit weapon I would look for someone else, because DPS is ultimately what matters. The point of forming an exp/farm group is to get better exp. If the person joining the group is not going to create a "gain" in some way, then there is no point in bringing them.

If p99 had some kind of standardized prize that's only given to groups that can clear a certain area or kill a certain number of MOBs within a specified time limit, then you would definitely see people caring more. This does actually exist already, but only informally, for the people who want to spend their time as efficiently as possible, which for a new server is incredibly relevant for getting to a certain level and claiming a certain item camp faster than others. And for a non-new server it's still relevant for getting more alts and/or better gear to put your guild in a better position over another guild.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Min/Maxed groups are never going to be running 6 people, so you need to consolidate roles by getting classes that can do multiple things.

Not true with a proper exp bonus in place for grouping, like the one that exists on Red server. Plus on Red server you inherently might want extra people to help defend against possible PvP. Funny how PvP Everquest has FAR more interesting PvE. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, you do often want 6 people for a min/maxed guild group anyway, as it directly benefits the guild for everyone to level up.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But on P99 most groups can be successful with most content, regardless of gear and composition. This is simply fact.

That is not a fact whatsoever. Especially since the definition of "successful" is personal. For many people, playing the game like a grandpa who just discovered the internet is not a successful or fun way to play.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A well tuned xp group is not going to bring a pure DPS with no utility. That is a waste of a group slot.

You don't understand how to create a "well tuned" xp group, it would seem.

-----

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd stand by what I said at the beginning of the thread, pre-Kunark rogues are VERY sub-optimal to the degree that it definitely does make a difference and I don't blame anyone for not really wanting them in groups if they had the choice on green.

If we were talking actual 1999 era Everquest, then yeah I'd say Rogue was the overall worst class. Backstab did less damage back then, "evade" didn't exist, and sneak/hide were no different than normal invis. Poisons also didn't work back then. But all of those things have been ignored in the timeline on p99, AFAIK. Rogues on p99 Green started in their 2000-era form.

That said, even with pre-buff Backstab, a Rogue could do a bit higher DPS than most other melee. So if you just use root properly for proximity aggro (which tons of people didn't understand back then), then you don't need Evade and can get your DPS in. There was also the month in 1999 where "Whirl Til You Hurl" was broken, which Rogues were able to benefit from.

Another quirk is that stealing was much more powerful back then, Rogues could get way more items from NPCs. I recall Fires of Heaven saying their Rogues were getting shit off Nagafen before they were able to kill him for the 1st time. So, when looked at that way, Rogues were secretly good? But that got changed pretty quickly too.

[eqravenprince]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, gear checks do happen. It's not the norm, but I usually asked melee what weapon they have when forming a group. If they had a shit weapon I would look for someone else, because DPS is ultimately what matters. The point of forming an exp/farm group is to get better exp. If the person joining the group is not going to create a "gain" in some way, then there is no point in bringing them.

"It's not the norm" is the only thing you got right. It is not the only thing that matters. It's not the point. The point is the to have fun, obviously the way you have fun is not the norm.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is completely wrong. You will kill VERY slowly with mino axes only.

A group of 5 Mages and 1 Healer will get at least 4x more kills than a group of 5 melee and 1 healer with that kind of gear. Or even just slotting 1 Mage into said melee group (which you could argue as being the more realistic scenario), you will see a big increase in kill rate.

Mino axe wielding lowbies will still chew through content. I am not sure what game you are playing, but it isn't P99. If your definition of "slow" is any group that isn't running 5 mages, then I guess you are right. But most people don't want to level Mages, which is why you don't see this group composition that often. The point of XP groups is to level a character you want to play, not theory craft the highest DPS group possible.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In terms of gaining exp/farming, they were not "great". Maybe you liked the people you were playing with, maybe you had fun, but you factually were achieving far less gains. What everyone finds fun will vary, but I definitely do not find it fun to be extremely inefficient in a game like this that is already a big timesink.

When I started EQ in 1999 and was a Shaman and would group with 5 Warriors out in the Everfrost tundra, that was actually some of the most fun I've had, because of how new and dangerous it all was, and how it was a normal thing to be doing at the time (and also because the group was totally dependent on me for heals). But now? Pretty much everyone knows how to level faster and where to farm and how to avoid danger better. At the higher levels where it becomes increasingly difficult to make progress, it is INCREDIBLY boring to play this game without aiming for good efficiency, trying to pull as much as possible and get as many kills as possible, which also re-invites a chance of danger if the group overextends on its resources.

P99 isn't that hard, and you can XP just fine in a lot of situations, including the silly group situation you concocted. It seems like you are someone who prefers to speed through the leveling process faster than normal via static groups. That is perfectly fine, but not what most people do.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, gear checks do happen. It's not the norm, but I usually asked melee what weapon they have when forming a group. If they had a shit weapon I would look for someone else, because DPS is ultimately what matters. The point of forming an exp/farm group is to get better exp. If the person joining the group is not going to create a "gain" in some way, then there is no point in bringing them.

No, gear checks do not happen. You are the only person I have ever heard of who does it lol. Just because you do it, doesn't mean it is normal or necessary. Usually the only checks are class checks, because a group normally needs a healer, tank, puller, and CC to function properly. Most of the benefit that group is getting is from utility, not raw DPS.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If p99 had some kind of standardized prize that's only given to groups that can clear a certain area or kill a certain number of MOBs within a specified time limit, then you would definitely see people caring more. This does actually exist already, but only informally, for the people who want to spend their time as efficiently as possible, which for a new server is incredibly relevant for getting to a certain level and claiming a certain item camp faster than others. And for a non-new server it's still relevant for getting more alts and/or better gear to put your guild in a better position over another guild.

But it doesn't, so this point is irrelevant. People play the majority of the game without needing to worry about DPS checks. Raiding is really the only place where high DPS is important.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not true with a proper exp bonus in place for grouping, like the one that exists on Red server. Plus on Red server you inherently might want extra people to help defend against possible PvP. Funny how PvP Everquest has FAR more interesting PvE. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, you do often want 6 people for a min/maxed guild group anyway, as it directly benefits the guild for everyone to level up.

I am talking about the real P99 servers. Red is dead, so the XP bonus is irrelevant. And no, a min/maxed group is not going to be running 6 people due to the xp penalty. It would be better to run multiple groups of 3 or 4 players and level in different areas if a guild is trying to fast level characters.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is not a fact whatsoever. Especially since the definition of "successful" is personal. For many people, playing the game like a grandpa who just discovered the internet is not a successful or fun way to play.

It is a fact. The majority of P99 isn't difficult. We are not talking about your definition of successful. We are talking about the normal definition of successful, which is a group that can clear content without dying.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You don't understand how to create a "well tuned" xp group, it would seem.

You are the one who thinks a group of 6 is well tuned. I think this applies to you more than me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, it is true people don't gear check you. I leveled Jayya with ALS gear in probably 40% public/60% guild groups, and noone ever kicked me or even mentioned that I was swinging a Burning Rapier and Iksar Berserker Club around in my 30's.

That being said, its not just DPS that you don't need for a group. There's no real absolutely required role at all, though healing is close. I've been in plenty of groups that don't have tanks or don't have healers, and the ones with no tanks are fine but the ones with no healers tend to slow a lot.

Noone is going to gear check a tank for a group and one of the best groups I was ever in was just 5 rogues and a shaman aggro bouncing and slaughtering stuff over and over. One of the most fun events I've ever run was just an all-rogue group in Siren's Grotto whacking sirens one by one with a pocket factioned enchanter/cleric pair to patch up between kills and keep us buffed.

In any case, I would have to vote Shadow Knight. I think they have the least unique, useful niches out of all the classes. Mage might be a contender except for CotH, which by itself is incredible for getting people to a group/raid and pulling. Mages also get a boost for being really good at soloing.

Shadow Knight can still do cool stuff though, its just they kind of get overshadowed by Necros, Warriors or Paladins depending on what it is and don't really have a lot of truly unique things other than 1 or 2 AC debuffs.

I'll play devil's advocate and argue the case for gear:

True Story Time

The best XP I ever bore witness to was on my 58/59 (epic, fungi) rogue soon after they changed the Hole ZEM (the original mega boost, not current iteration). Found myself in a trio with a fungi / epic monk (pretty sure he was rocking sap encrusted branch and wurmscale fistwraps) and an epic (fungi too?) bard...all of us were 58 or 59. The monk had beads to boot. You can bet your sweet elf ass they gear-checked me before I got the invite...they were doing just fine without me.

No dedicated healer but the pulls were so insanely smooth I literally did not stop attacking on my rogue for over 4 hours. There was never a single moment where there was not at least 1 mob in camp with more on the way. Now, that was complete dirty-diaper-nerd-zone levels of commitment from all 3 of us but it utterly destroyed any XP I ever made leveling my enchanter, necro etc.

This never would have been accomplished if the bard/monk were trash tier players, but I doubt it would have been possible or even remotely efficient if their gear sucked. They were basically playing at the skill cap/ceiling and in godlike gear. They didn't "need" me to keep going, per se, but I was providing far more than enough dmg to make up for them going from 50/50 to 33% split.


All that being said, its still SK as the most underpowered class when you consider all aspects of the game. This is primarily because the paladin basically does what the SK can do but it brings Soulfire and DS. Mages are required to raid for any guild going after contested targets because of CotH. You could have literally zero SKs and be the #1 raid guild on p99. You cannot ignore raiding just because you're a SK main and don't got guild. Hope this helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll play devil's advocate and argue the case for gear:

True Story Time

The best XP I ever bore witness to was on my 58/59 (epic, fungi) rogue soon after they changed the Hole ZEM (the original mega boost, not current iteration). Found myself in a trio with a fungi / epic monk (pretty sure he was rocking sap encrusted branch and wurmscale fistwraps) and an epic (fungi too?) bard...all of us were 58 or 59. The monk had beads to boot. You can bet your sweet elf ass they gear-checked me before I got the invite...they were doing just fine without me.

No dedicated healer but the pulls were so insanely smooth I literally did not stop attacking on my rogue for over 4 hours. There was never a single moment where there was not at least 1 mob in camp with more on the way. Now, that was complete dirty-diaper-nerd-zone levels of commitment from all 3 of us but it utterly destroyed any XP I ever made leveling my enchanter, necro etc.

This never would have been accomplished if the bard/monk were trash tier players, but I doubt it would have been possible or even remotely efficient if their gear sucked. They were basically playing at the skill cap/ceiling and in godlike gear. They didn't "need" me to keep going, per se, but I was providing far more than enough dmg to make up for them going from 50/50 to 33% split.


All that being said, its still SK as the most underpowered class when you consider all aspects of the game. This is primarily because the paladin basically does what the SK can do but it brings Soulfire and DS. Mages are required to raid for any guild going after contested targets because of CotH. You could have literally zero SKs and be the #1 raid guild on p99. You cannot ignore raiding just because you're a SK main and don't got guild. Hope this helps.

Don't get me wrong, if you have great gear it makes the game smoother. I don't think anybody (including myself) has argued against that point. The point is simply that most content does not need players to be geared in god-like gear to achieve good results when XPing. Will it be as good as god-tier players in god-tier gear? Of course not, but sadly that is not the average pickup group, and luckily the game doesn't need this for your group to be successful. And I have been in this kind of group you are mentioning, so I do appreciate how awesome a group like this can be.

I disagree with the SK point when considering all aspects of the game. Factually speaking most players on P99 are not hardcore raiders. In my estimation that makes raiding a smaller part of the consideration when determining "most underpowered overall", which is what this thread was asking. The vast majority of content is solo/group content, and SK's are generally better at that than Mages, due to a Mage having basically no role outside of DPS in Solo/Group content. They are similar to Rogues in that sense, where they are limited to what they can kill without CC, or must resort to using a lot of clickies.

If this discussion was "most underpowered raid class in the game", I would 100% agree. SK's are the worst raiding class on P99, and Mages are great.

[Zeboim]

Just gonna say that if you tell a melee character they can't join your EXP group because of what weapon they have, you are an ENORMOUS tool.