Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said the JBB shaman had to be at 100% health.

You did:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The "last bit of HP" you are glossing over is actually more than half of the hp you lost. If you were to pull immediately at the end of each 180 second fight, you'd be losing close to 300 health per fight ... fight after fight. Remember, we're soloing here so this doesn't mean that you are at 100% health and 100% mana at the start of every fight and refusing to pull until you are again 100/100. You could start each fight at 90% ... or 80% health/mana. We're xp grinding here, not soloing WW dragons.

How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point?
Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds.
Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found)

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

JBB shaman:
17 dps pet + 32.875 dps JBB (50dps)
Fight takes 140 seconds
Mob does 1400damage to the shaman
Shaman regenerated 920 health over 140 seconds
Fight ends with shaman at a net negative 480hp
It will take 72 seconds to regen the lost hp and will recover 240 mana during that time.

"232" seconds of recovery time doesn't make sense in the first quote, when looking at the second quote you were referencing.

1. 140 seconds + 72 seconds = 212 seconds.

2. 1400 - 920 = 480 HP. 12 ticks (72 seconds) of recovery at 33 HP/Tick = 396 HP. The Shaman would be down 84 HP at this point.

3. To get the "232" seconds, you would need to add 3 ticks of recovery time to 212 seconds to make up the full 480 HP. This means you are assuming the JBB Shaman has to be at 100% when calculating recovery times, while simultaneously claiming Shaman's don't have to be at 100% HP.

Now, your 212 second number is still wrong, which I have shown repeatedly. The JBB Shaman is also clearing the encounter in 188 seconds when you aren't including specialization or Regrowth + Haste upkeep on both the Iksar and Ogre. Including them increases the Iksar's time too. But you did indeed attempt to pad recovery time. As I said, grasping at straws.

[Duik]

Jesus titty fucking christ.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will add Specialization and Self Regrowth + Pet Haste at Troxx's request. It still doesn't change the outcome. It just increases the time on both encounters equally.

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.
6. Regrowth has an upkeep of 1.94 mana per tick on Ogres and 1.95 mana per tick on Iksars over an hour.
7. Celerity has an upkeep of 1.25 mana per tick on Ogres and 1.26 mana per tick on Iksars over an hour.
8. Mortal Deftness has an upkeep of 0.26 mana per tick on Ogres over an hour. The Iksar is not using this spell.
9. Average pull time is 3 ticks (18 seconds).
10. 2.2 DPS from Blight, Hammer of the Scourge for the JBB Shaman. A Shaman with 135 DEX (75 Base + 60 from Buff) has 1.3 PPM. Fight is 2 minutes, so 2.6 procs per fight on average. Halve that because JBB is halving the number of swings. Reduce to 1.0 to cover for the small time where the mob is rooted. Weapon would proc after the first minute on average. 544 / 2 (half ticks) + 40 (DD) = 312 damage. 312 / 132 seconds = ~2.4 DPS, but we can reduce it to 2.2 again to account for root. This is also not including the white damage from the Hammer itself.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 158 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects after specialization
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 43 Mana spent on overhead from Regrowth on self 4x per hour
- 28 Mana spent on overhead from Celerity on Pet 4x per hour
- 28 Mana spent on 1x Root after specialization to let pet tank for a small period
- 120 HP recovered from root. It prevents 80-160 damage at the beginning of the fight, depending on if root breaks after the first or second JBB cast

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 241
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 66 seconds to recover 231 Mana. You are down -78 HP and -10 Mana.

196 seconds per encounter. With the 3 tick average pull time, the Shaman would be down -7 Mana after each encounter. Since you are not tied to the 188 second fight time, you can pull earlier if the pull time is longer. 184-190 seconds per encounter on longer pulls.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 158 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects after specialization
- 28 Mana spent on 1x Root after specialization
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 121 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regrowth on self AND pet, 8x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 158 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter the damage above after specialization

Total HP Gained: 1396
Total Mana Spent: 854
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 6 seconds to recover 21 Mana. Canni 4 would put you at -84 HP and -34 Mana after combat, so you would need to spend 6 seconds recovering to end up with -38 HP and -13 Mana. Pet would be at -100 HP, but will recover after the pull.

194 Seconds per encounter. With the 3 tick average pull time, the Shaman would be at -10 Mana after each encounter. This assumes the Iksar Shaman never fizzled, missed a sitting tick aside from spell casts, never got a spell resist on DoTs, never got a root break, and never got hit during a root break.

Realistically the JBB Shaman could start a new encounter 12-18 seconds earlier if they know that the pull is going to be long. Shamans should not be at 100% HP while pulling, but we are assuming this just to remove the possibility of HP drift across multiple encounters. The DoT Shaman will be spending the full 188 seconds on the encounter, or they will lose some sitting ticks from pulling early while the pet finishes off the mob. The JBB Shaman does not have to worry about fizzling for the most part, missing sitting ticks, spell resists on expensive spells like your DoTs, and root breaks which cost HP and Mana to re-root the mob, + loss of sitting tick. This is why JBB is better. You end up saving a good amount of HP/Mana per hour by removing these RnG factors from your gameplay. A resisted JBB cast from time to time costs no mana. A resisted DoT would cost 300 mana, which means you need to spend time out of combat recovering it. This counteracts the occasional JBB resist, which would extend the fight by 8 seconds and cost zero mana.

[fortior]

this is still going? lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Reposting with a small addendum. I did not explain the longer pull times well enough. Since the JBB Shaman is finishing the mob 56 seconds sooner than the DoT Shaman, they have more flexibility on pull times depending on pull length and RnG luck with how much damage they take per fight. A DoT Shaman has less wiggle room here, as they will be forced to leave their pet to finish the mob if they want to pull earlier. They can do this of course, but then you need to add the additional factor of leaving your pet alone while you pull.

I will add Specialization and Self Regrowth + Pet Haste at Troxx's request. It still doesn't change the outcome. It just increases the time on both encounters equally.

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.
6. Regrowth has an upkeep of 1.94 mana per tick on Ogres and 1.95 mana per tick on Iksars over an hour.
7. Celerity has an upkeep of 1.25 mana per tick on Ogres and 1.26 mana per tick on Iksars over an hour.
8. Mortal Deftness has an upkeep of 0.26 mana per tick on Ogres over an hour. The Iksar is not using this spell.
9. Average pull time is 3 ticks (18 seconds).
10. 2.2 DPS from Blight, Hammer of the Scourge for the JBB Shaman. A Shaman with 135 DEX (75 Base + 60 from Buff) has 1.3 PPM. Fight is 2 minutes, so 2.6 procs per fight on average. Halve that because JBB is halving the number of swings. Reduce to 1.0 to cover for the small time where the mob is rooted. Weapon would proc after the first minute on average. 544 / 2 (half ticks) + 40 (DD) = 312 damage. 312 / 132 seconds = ~2.4 DPS, but we can reduce it to 2.2 again to account for root. This is also not including the white damage from the Hammer itself.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 158 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects after specialization
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 43 Mana spent on overhead from Regrowth on self 4x per hour
- 28 Mana spent on overhead from Celerity on Pet 4x per hour
- 28 Mana spent on 1x Root after specialization to let pet tank for a small period
- 120 HP recovered from root. It prevents 80-160 damage at the beginning of the fight, depending on if root breaks after the first or second JBB cast

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 241
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 66 seconds to recover 231 Mana. You are down -78 HP and -10 Mana.

196 seconds per encounter. With the 3 tick average pull time, the Shaman would be down -7 Mana after each encounter. Since you are not tied to the 188 second fight time, you can pull earlier if the pull time is longer. 184 or less seconds per encounter on longer pulls, as you are not pulling while fighting.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 158 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects after specialization
- 28 Mana spent on 1x Root after specialization
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 121 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regrowth on self AND pet, 8x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 158 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter the damage above after specialization

Total HP Gained: 1396
Total Mana Spent: 854
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 6 seconds to recover 21 Mana. Canni 4 would put you at -84 HP and -34 Mana after combat, so you would need to spend 6 seconds recovering to end up with -38 HP and -13 Mana. Pet would be at -65 HP, but will recover after the pull.

194 Seconds per encounter. With the 3 tick average pull time, the Shaman would be at -10 Mana after each encounter. This assumes the Iksar Shaman never fizzled, missed a sitting tick aside from spell casts, never got a spell resist on DoTs, never got a root break, and never got hit during a root break. 188 per encounter on longer pulls. If you choose to pull sooner while the mob is still alive, you need to factor in the risk of leaving your pet by itself to finish the mob.

Realistically the JBB Shaman could start a new encounter 12-18 seconds earlier if they know that the pull is going to be long. Shamans should not be at 100% HP while pulling, but we are assuming this just to remove the possibility of HP drift across multiple encounters. The DoT Shaman will be spending the full 188 seconds on the encounter. If they decide to pull earlier, they will need to leave the pet alone to finish the mob, which adds risk that the JBB Shaman does not have. The JBB Shaman does not have to worry about fizzling for the most part, missing sitting ticks, spell resists on expensive spells like your DoTs, and root breaks which cost HP and Mana to re-root the mob, + loss of sitting tick. This is why JBB is better. You end up saving a good amount of HP/Mana per hour by removing these RnG factors from your gameplay. A resisted JBB cast from time to time costs no mana. A resisted DoT would cost 300 mana, which means you need to spend time out of combat recovering it. This counteracts the occasional JBB resist, which would extend the fight by 8 seconds and cost zero mana.

[Troxx]

You know what

I’m done. In good faith I have engaged on all the debatable areas. Anyone reading this thread will read it all - whether about the actual value of JBB or the relative value of FSI vs racial regen.

I will remain in this thread only in the capacity of the “lulz”. Yet another unproductive DSM thread.


For those “new guys”

-FSI is overrated
-any shaman regardless of race is OP and capable at baseline
-racial regen is superior
-JBB is great at PLing 45-51. Good from 51-52, starts to fall behind around 52 (regrowth) and becomes irrelevant at 55 with new pet

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You know what

I’m done.

Thank you for conceding. I know you will not directly admit you are wrong in any thread, but this is close enough. You cannot rebut the data, and refuse to change your mind. You obviously have the right to your opinion, but it is just an opinion since you cannot back it up with facts.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In good faith I have engaged on all the debatable areas.

You did much better in this thread than others, as you actually tried to present some evidence this time. I consider that a good example of personal growth! Please keep it up.

You still did a lot of trolling, however. Claiming that changing your location to "The sands of DSM’s vagina" and your many troll posts are "good faith" is obviously silly:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When Troxx cannot rebut points, he resorts to silly gifs and fake autism medical diagnoses:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=182 - fake medical diagnosis.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=240 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=156 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=151 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=100 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...9&postcount=38 - Silly gif

---

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-FSI is overrated
-racial regen is superior [in all cases]
-JBB is great at PLing 45-51. Good from 51-52, starts to fall behind around 52 (regrowth) and becomes irrelevant at 55 with new pet

All of these claims have been disproven factually. Please ignore Troxx when he makes these claims, as he has no basis for them right now. If he wants to prove his ideas, he still needs to do so.

For people who want the facts on why JBB is better for leveling from 45-60: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=515 .

For people who want the facts on why FSI is the best racial from a Min/Max perspective: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=311

Here is the answer to OP's specific question, which was answered on page 1:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As Toxigen said, JBB isn't necessary for any endgame content.

I still use mine at 60, JBB isn't just for powerleveling. Saving spell slots is always very nice on a Shaman.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - An example of using JBB on Cliff Golems. I did 5000ish damage with JBB, which is 1/6th of it's life.

[Troxx]

There is no concession, DSM. We are at an impasse. I have posted the rationale. I have backed it up with the kind of napkin-math you value so much. I have proven you wrong. You are simply incapable of thinking outside whatever box you have constructed in your little mind.

Anyone reading this thread can see that.

See you on the flip side?

GIFS may or may not follow.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no concession, DSM. We are at an impasse. I have posted the rationale. I have backed it up with the kind of napkin-math you value so much.

Anyone reading this thread can see that.

See you on the flip side?

GIFS may or may not follow.

You cannot claim we are at an impasse when the facts support my argument. You have currently conceded, even if you want to pretend otherwise. Unfortunately your "napkin math" was flawed, and I showed why. If you want to claim victory, you still need to show my latest math to be flawed https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=515 . You have yet to do so. I am glad we had this back and forth, as it honed our data. We were both wrong at times, and learned from each other. You even tried to present some facts for a change, which was great! I consider that a win for the community. You simply fell short in the end and lost, which can happen to anyone.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are simply incapable of thinking outside whatever box you have constructed in your little mind.

You need to stop posting nonsense like this. It just ruins any claims you have of "arguing in good faith". If you want to be taken seriously, you need to leave this kind of behavior behind.

[Troxx]

Ok.

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