Server accuracy

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dumping a mallet into a mob with 100% HP should almost generate no hate (I believe full spell agro only factored in when mob was in summoning mode).

Also, hate should decay. If you have established 20,000 points of hate on a hate list, you shouldn't be able to turn auto-attack off and wait for someone to get to 20,001 points. High level mobs should have hate decay more rapidly than lower level mobs. I don't know the exact formula for this, and not sure if anyone really does, but hate decay was a confirmed feature from Brad.

Finally, if you are on a mob's hate list, but add no additional hate, you should drop off the hate list completely after like 5 minutes.

I never went through and tested, figured someone of your background would know.

Looks like Rygar is on his Midnight Mallet nerf crusade again with basically zero evidence which is par for the course for this guys 'Classic Done My Way Crusade'

Never in my life heard about mobs 'needing to be in summon' mode to generate aggro, please stop pulling shit out of your ass.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Looks like Rygar is on his Midnight Mallet nerf crusade again with basically zero evidence which is par for the course for this guys 'Classic Done My Way Crusade'

Never in my life heard about mobs 'needing to be in summon' mode to generate aggro, please stop pulling shit out of your ass.

I am paraphrasing from a conversation between Brad and the guild leader of Conquest. It was a comical conversation that Verant made public to 'gain support' for banning Conquest after some Sleeper's Tomb exploits, but it really showed that they made a bunch of bad assumptions that were impossible based on how the game was designed.

Essentially, they claimed the warrior stood under some bridge for 20 minutes in Sleeper's Tomb and built up 'huge amounts of hate' without being damaged and then sent his raid force in to engage the mob, keeping all the mob attention on him due to the high amount of hate he built up.

Conquest basically stated what I said and that it was impossible to build hate up due to those 3 hate list features and, guess what, Brad conceded on that front.

I find it interesting that he was unaware of Midnight Mallets at all, but instead referenced bio orbs or healing items (assuming prayers or something) would have been needed to try generate the agro Brad was referring to, but it would fail anyways.

Even said something along the lines of 'please tell me of an item that can instantly generate so much hate, us tanks would love to have one'.

But nonetheless, you just want to keep your status quo and really don't care for how things should be, just what you have been accustomed to doing. I have not made a bug report yet on these features because I wanted to test them on P99 and find other corroborating evidence, but am a bit too busy to focus on that at the moment due to RL circumstances. But if it makes you feel more comfortable I'm purely talking out of my ass, then go for it.

[skarlorn]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Looks like Rygar is on his Midnight Mallet nerf crusade again with basically zero evidence which is par for the course for this guys 'Classic Done My Way Crusade'

Never in my life heard about mobs 'needing to be in summon' mode to generate aggro, please stop pulling shit out of your ass.

Mad

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am paraphrasing from a conversation between Brad and the guild leader of Conquest. It was a comical conversation that Verant made public to 'gain support' for banning Conquest after some Sleeper's Tomb exploits, but it really showed that they made a bunch of bad assumptions that were impossible based on how the game was designed.

Essentially, they claimed the warrior stood under some bridge for 20 minutes in Sleeper's Tomb and built up 'huge amounts of hate' without being damaged and then sent his raid force in to engage the mob, keeping all the mob attention on him due to the high amount of hate he built up.

Conquest basically stated what I said and that it was impossible to build hate up due to those 3 hate list features and, guess what, Brad conceded on that front.

I find it interesting that he was unaware of Midnight Mallets at all, but instead referenced bio orbs or healing items (assuming prayers or something) would have been needed to try generate the agro Brad was referring to, but it would fail anyways.

Even said something along the lines of 'please tell me of an item that can instantly generate so much hate, us tanks would love to have one'.

But nonetheless, you just want to keep your status quo and really don't care for how things should be, just what you have been accustomed to doing. I have not made a bug report yet on these features because I wanted to test them on P99 and find other corroborating evidence, but am a bit too busy to focus on that at the moment due to RL circumstances. But if it makes you feel more comfortable I'm purely talking out of my ass, then go for it.

Exactly what I mean when I say "talking out of your ass"- no links, no patch notes, no recordings, no video - nothing. Par for the Ry-course.

Its laughable you are telling a person with a forum handle that is dated 2009 that I 'dont care' about how things should be. I came here for classic Everquest, do you even play here?

[skarlorn]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its laughable you are telling a person with a forum handle that is dated 2009 that I 'dont care' about how things should be. I came here for classic Everquest, do you even play here?

:yikes:

[Argh]

Originally Posted by skarlorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

:yikes:

[Erati]

<3

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly what I mean when I say "talking out of your ass"- no links, no patch notes, no recordings, no video - nothing. Par for the Ry-course.

Its laughable you are telling a person with a forum handle that is dated 2009 that I 'dont care' about how things should be. I came here for classic Everquest, do you even play here?

Saying I'm talking out of my ass implies I made up something and know nothing about it. To say I never link any evidence from patch notes or other links is laughable. I suppose the recent thread I made about how Druid / Cleric / Shaman / Paladin bind wound skill should be 210 and allow them to bandage up to 70% was just 'par for the Ry-course'? Oh... what was that, I linked patch notes, in era player statements, in era dev comments, and corroborating evidence that other pages such as casters realm had the skill cap listed for those skills incorrectly? Hmmm...

I did a bit of googling and found the Conquest conversation since you were too lazy, I'm sure you still think I'm talking out of my ass:
http://web.archive.org/web/200210262...ML/000210.html

Relative blurbs:

Verant:

Here are the events in order as we are able to determine:

1. Tank aggros dragon
2. Tank retreats under bridge (safe zone).
3. THIS IS EXPLOIT #1. Tank probably uses items to gain hate during the approx. 15 minutes the dragon is stuck on the bridge (our logs indicate the dragon was attempting to move towards several players but it's coordinates were NOT changing - thus, those to whom it wanted to move were in the safe zone).
4. HP of the dragon is kept relatively full such that it doesn't summon. Once tank has sufficient hate built up, he signals to begin all out attack

Conquest:

Before going on let me clarify a few things about hate... based on your
statement: gaining hate for 15 minutes.

Hate fact 1: All hate decays - and it decays rapidly on high level mobs. These mobs care about "who has made me angry recently" not "who has given me the most aggro total"

How to test this: Find that one mob that has 32k hp and regens 32k hp per tick. Do 50,000 damage to it over the course of 15 minutes or so. Then have someone else start doing damage to it. That person will not have to do anywhere near 50,001 damage before it switches off. This is even more true on end encounters.

Hate fact 2: Any and all hate over ~5 minutes old(I don't know the exact time, but it is around 5 minutes) is removed from the mob completely.

How to test this: When you found the safe spot in your tests, you probably noticed the mob would just get up and walk off after 5 minutes(forgetting you 100% completely)... if you bothered standing there long enough. In fact, you cant even keep the mob on the bridge for more then 5 minutes without 2 people aggro'd, and doing something to hold their individual aggro (i.e. healing each other - or in the case of a bard, the bard just sings).

Hate fact 3: End encounter ubermobs will only add very VERY low amounts of hate from spells unless they are hurt (and in summoning mode).

How to test this with offensive spells: Have an invulnerable GM cast
tashanian (a huge taunt spell) 50 times on the warder. Have a melee walk up and hit one time. Watch the warder attack the melee...

How to test with healing spells: Have one person aggro warder and jump off the bridge. Have a cleric ch them 10 times (have them use their entire mana pool). Have a melee fight the warder. Watch the warder turn on the melee after 15 seconds tops. Ok, so doing this can get you 15 seconds of free hits as a melee... What you need to look at, however, is how that mana can be (and was in our case) put to much better use. One cleric can keep me alive 120 seconds strait, with 0 chance of me dieing - with coh to clear their own aggro. This seems to be, by your admission, a non-issue though since having clerics at top of hate list serves no function other then to get yourselves killed.

Now allow me to respond to your email with this in mind...

>1. Tank aggros dragon
>2. Tank retreats under bridge (safe zone).
>3. THIS IS EXPLOIT #1. Tank probably uses items to gain hate during
>the approx. 15 minutes the dragon is stuck on the bridge (our logs indicate

Step 3 is 100% critical to this entire thing... The problem here, is it is impossible for me to have built hate while under there. First of all, no matter where u stand, you cant shoot arrows at the mob, so you can toss that idea out.. Using offensive spells, such as blind orb from the CS fish, or bracer of Fenin Ro generate practically no aggro at all (see above).

You could build up some aggro with complete heal items tho. For example if a warrior bothered to do the soul fire quest they could complete heal them self to keep aggro - and it would probably last to maybe (if you're lucky) the dragon has had 15% of its life taken off. The problem with this? Just go through my saved logs... Not only did I not have a complete heal sword from befallen or a soulfire that night, but I HAVE NEVER owned either of those items, ever... It was just an idea I threw up in guildchat, so our clerics wouldn't keep getting summoned and killed, and to keep the mob on me. It is 100% impossible for me to have built aggro while the mob was standing there for 15 minutes (not to mention the logs should clearly show that I didn't....)

Also, if you check the logs, you should see the warder shout his aggro
message every 5 minutes or so. This happens when the warders aggro list has been cleared 100% and it re-aggros on the bard.

From Verant (Brad):

** a seemingly accurate description of hate decay (I'm at home now, so I don't have all my people here to check this out), etc., deleted **

We assume(d) you had items that healed, etc., allowing you to build up hate there. In fact, one of the GMs has been instructed to look at your character in the backups and examine your inventory. In the meantime, I'll take your word for it, however, that you did not.

There seems to be the implication that healing spells would cause hate but offensive would not if the mob wasn't in summoning mode. His example on complete heal to test is a bit poorly thought out as well, since the spell has such a long cast time and hate should 'decay rapidly' on end game mobs.

Brad also left him some wiggle room saying he did not 'have his people check it out'.

This is why I need to find some backup evidence and dig into it more completely. I like to think the uber guild tank of the day and creator of EQ having a conversation about Hate Mechanics holds some water. I just don't want to, you know, "Pull a Rygar" and not make a bug report 100% air tight so you drop shit all over it on the forums and flood it with tears.

EDIT: Shit, forgot... 2009 forum handle. That is serious street cred. I retract all the above statements, I bow to your supreme glory and infinite wisdom.

[skarlorn]

Originally Posted by Spyder73 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hell knows no fury like an elf scorned

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There seems to be the implication that healing spells would cause hate but offensive would not if the mob wasn't in summoning mode. His example on complete heal to test is a bit poorly thought out as well, since the spell has such a long cast time and hate should 'decay rapidly' on end game mobs.

This is exactly what my issue is with you. Your interpretation of that exchange ( interesting find btw ) is pretty off and why its simply not good evidence in terms of bug reports and fixes here on P99.

The reason they are talking about healing spells giving him aggro is due to LOS...the guild chat that they pulled up later in the article even mentions LOS as part of their tactic.

[Mon Jun 04 20:28:27 2001] Guildmember #3 told the guild, 'this is our LAST CHANCE'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:29 2001] Guildmember #2 told the guild, 'gah fuggin BS'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:35 2001] Guildmember #3 told the guild, 'so lets make sure we do it tonight'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:36 2001] Guildmember #2 told the guild, 'so no snare sploit?'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:39 2001] Guildmember #3 told the guild, 'nope'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:40 2001] Guildmember #4 told the guild, 'what are they doing to 3?'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:44 2001] Guildmember #4 told the guild, 'Killing snare sploit?'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:48 2001] Guildmember #3 told the guild, 'changing it so we cant snare sploit'
[Mon Jun 04 20:28:49 2001] Guildmember #5 told the guild, 'LoS! Rez! Pathing! Agro! With our powers combine, we summon forth ITZLEGEND!'

So from what I gather, the dude basically tanked the hardest warder in game with less than 30 people bc he was under a bridge exploiting the pathing as the dragon could not reach him. Their guild was suspended and they are trying to rule lawyer out of it.

LOS is key here because if hes under a bridge and a dragon cannot path to him its fairly easy to then see why the GM/Devs were checking him for healing items as healing wouldnt require LOS on the dragon. Literally has nothing to do with 'offensive spells not causing hate until a mob is at summoning health' as you try to spin it towards your #nerfmallet crusade but its a good effort I will give you that.

Conversations like this while very interesting reads and make you think about EQ mechanics are unfortunately terrible for trying to perform fixes here bc well frankly players back then are largely assuming things much like we do today. If a developer spells things out sure that is a different wayback conversation to read but Brad literally spells no details for the guys depiction of 'how hate works' and simply notes that his details were 'seemingly accurate'. Didnt say which of the many things mentioned were accurate or which were not, very typical EQ dev talk not revealing their code functionality but again nothing confirming or eluding to your 'offensive spells do no aggro until mobs summon' hypothesis.

We have hate decay on P99 right now, its called leashing and the ten min de-aggro of all mobs.