For a Shaman who wants to melee level, do I need to be Ogre/Troll?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yup, you've got me. Despite playing a Shaman on live to 65+tons of AAs, when I came here I knew absolutely nothing about playing a Shaman. Despite being given a weapon that was so good it no longer exists I was too stupid to use it properly ... you know, by trying to melee mobs (it's hard!). But you and your theorycrafting genius have uncovered my foolish play, and clearly shown how dumb I was.

/s

I am not sure why you are getting offended here. Me saying you had a bad strategy is not me saying you are stupid, or are inexperienced with the game. Even the best of us make mistakes on a 22 year old elf sim that people know everything there is to know about it.

With your experience, you should know how much damage most classes can do around their 20s. It is hardly theory crafting on my part. With the exception of cloth casters, it is pretty easy to do at least 27 white damage per 6 seconds, which is the same amount of damage as envemoned breath, your level 24 poison DoT. I do have a level 24 cleric with Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a Poison Wind Censor, so I will post a damage log here when I have some time, so you can get the facts. Since it is a cleric, the damage output will be a bit lower due to my lower strength and lower weapon skill caps.

[Jimjam]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

Yes, and I believe one important point was lost in our discussion, which was probably my fault. Shaman melee isn't very good if you are running around with banded armor, no haste item, and a weapon with a 0.33 ratio. And I am not trying to argue about how it worked on live. I played a warrior from 1999 to 2005, so I can't say how Shamans worked back then.

I am simply pointing out priest melee, especially Shaman melee, is actually pretty good on P99 with a haste item and a poison wind censor or granite face grinder until your 40s. On P99 it is quite easy to get those items, even as a new player. It isn't like you need to spend 100k to get to a good spot with melee. It typically is better than yout DoTs, which are honestly quite bad until your 40s. But obviously the DoTs are better if you have really bad gear.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, and I believe one important point was lost in our discussion, which was probably my fault. Shaman melee isn't very good if you are running around with banded armor, no haste item, and a weapon with a 0.33 ratio. And I am not trying to argue about how it worked on live. I played a warrior from 1999 to 2005, so I can't say how Shamans worked back then.

I am simply pointing out priest melee, especially Shaman melee, is actually pretty good on P99 with a haste item and a poison wind censor or granite face grinder until your 40s. On P99 it is quite easy to get those items, even as a new player. It isn't like you need to spend 100k to get to a good spot with melee. It typically is better than yout DoTs, which are honestly quite bad until your 40s. But obviously the DoTs are better if you have really bad gear.

Honestly, I feel the gear I listed above overperforms on P1999 compared to what it would do on live - and consequently the gear you list is even better again compared to classic times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly, I feel the gear I listed above overperforms on P1999 compared to what it would do on live - and consequently the gear you list is even better again compared to classic times.

You may be right. All I can do is let people know how it currently works on P99, so they can plan accordingly. With the current prices of those items, their current effectiveness, and the ease at which you can farm the plat to get them, it should be a no brainer to use them to level while soloing. Until your 40s at least.

[Danth]

Your 20's Cleric will have the same weapon skills as your 20's Shaman. While the Cleric ultimately caps lower, they both raise at 4xlevel plus 4 until cap, just the Cleric will cap sooner.

Discussing the Barbarian hammer during the 20's seems moot since its special doesn't work until the 30's.

Final note, a 3:1 ratio weapon would be exceptionally good for classic era. A 20's Shaman in pre-expansion equipment would realistically be using something in the 6/27 to 6/30 range, maybe a 9/35 cold iron morning star or 8/31 ebon war spear if he bought something. Darksea harpoon was far too rare and expensive for self-funded lowbies to practically obtain. Kunark was when you started to see more weapons in the 3:1 range at prices low level players could realistically afford like beetle stinger or slime coated harpoon. Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks due to poor weapons, low damage tables, and lack of double attack. With later-era equipment they can do okay for awhile. I think we're all in agreement here so let's not get bogged down arguing over minutiae.

Danth

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

I'm sure there are some significant differences ... but I'm talking about Project 1999. The only reason I referenced live was to point out that I wasn't some n00b that didn't know how to play the class when I started here (in fact, I literally have tried to "re-create" Loramin 1.0's experience here with Loramin 2.0, in terms of leveling in many of the same places and such) ... but I'm not talking about live, I'm saying on P99 Shaman melee damage is < 1/3 total damage, at least most of the time, once you get past (roughly) 20.

There's a very simple way anyone who wants to can prove me wrong: parse a level 30 Shaman meleeing something, while also parsing their pet and DoT damage. Since all I have to go on is one subjective experience leveling a Shaman (with a now impossible weapon), I'd certainly welcome more objective evidence.

But until such evidence is presented, I'm sticking to my subjective experience.

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks

Agreed. But even with a BSH at 35 ... my experience was that it too stunk. Well, not stunk (I'd be lying if I said I didn't notice the procs; it's a JBB click at a much lower level!) ... but just not enough to outweigh DoT/pet damage. I still often found it more efficient not to melee as a result, or to do mixtures (eg. trying to "joust" for a proc while root/rotting or pet tanking).

But again, happy to change my mind if someone shows me a parse of (say) a 35 Shaman with a good ratio weapon and haste clearly doing more damage than pet/DoTs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your 20's Cleric will have the same weapon skills as your 20's Shaman. While the Cleric ultimately caps lower, they both raise at 4xlevel plus 4 until cap, just the Cleric will cap sooner.

Discussing the Barbarian hammer during the 20's seems moot since its special doesn't work until the 30's.

Final note, a 3:1 ratio weapon would be exceptionally good for classic era. A 20's Shaman in pre-expansion equipment would realistically be using something in the 6/27 to 6/30 range, maybe a 9/35 cold iron morning star or 8/31 ebon war spear if he bought something. Darksea harpoon was far too rare and expensive for self-funded lowbies to practically obtain. Kunark was when you started to see more weapons in the 3:1 range at prices low level players could realistically afford like beetle stinger or slime coated harpoon. Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks due to poor weapons, low damage tables, and lack of double attack. With later-era equipment they can do okay for awhile. I think we're all in agreement here so let's not get bogged down arguing over minutiae.

Danth

Agreed. This thread is supposed to be about Shaman melee on P99 in 2021. That is where the discussion keeps going off the rails. I honestly don't care about how it used to work or how it "should work". The answer is Shaman melee is good with the right gear until your 40s on P99 in 2021. People who say otherwise are incorrect. I will post those cleric logs tonight hopefully[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also, I am not sure why Loramin keeps bringing up pets. No where have I said a melee focused Shaman should not be using their pet. When a melee focused Shaman reaches level 34, they use melee and their pet. When I say DoTs, I am referring to Shaman spell DoTs. I understand the inclination to say pets are also DoTs, but I don't normally see people confuse actual DoTs with pets. The point is simply than Shaman spell DoTs are pretty weak until Plague and Envenomed Bolt. They cost a lot of mana and deal low damage. That is one reason why Shaman melee can give low level DoTs a run for their money in terms of comparable DPS.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Final note, a 3:1 ratio weapon would be exceptionally good for classic era. A 20's Shaman in pre-expansion equipment would realistically be using something in the 6/27 to 6/30 range, maybe a 9/35 cold iron morning star or 8/31 ebon war spear if he bought something. Darksea harpoon was far too rare and expensive for self-funded lowbies to practically obtain. Kunark was when you started to see more weapons in the 3:1 range at prices low level players could realistically afford like beetle stinger or slime coated harpoon. Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks due to poor weapons, low damage tables, and lack of double attack. With later-era equipment they can do okay for awhile. I think we're all in agreement here so let's not get bogged down arguing over minutiae.

Staff of the Observers (12/35) is another one to keep an eye out for if you want to melee on a classic server.

This thread is making me feel nostalgia for my live shaman and the Velium Brawl Stick he was gifted in the 30s or 40s. I didn't move my damage spells to the back of the book, but it sure was worth it to turn on auto attack when I was in melee range.