Lord Nagafen & Lady Vox status (post 52 restriction)

[Tiggles]

Originally Posted by Bubbles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's a shame you didn't. It's every bit as detailed, thorough, and insightful as Loke's was. I thought they made pretty good bookends to each perspective of the raiding scene.

Ok i just skimmed it

Looks like he wants some government body "The staff?" to force the raiding guilds "The rich" to give mobs to the casual guilds "The poor"

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[Ring]

Originally Posted by h0tr0d (shaere) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll say this right up front so there is no confusion. This game has always mostly been about the people who play more get more. Putting more time in means more plat, geared alts, phat lewtz. Always has always will. There is nothing wrong with getting or wanting loot, with killing raid targets and seeing your guild kick ass or improve. No one is expected to do hand-outs and be charity givers and help every other guild gear up, you form guilds to do bigger things and you look out for your guild first. That being said...




There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin. But to say people is idiocy. Define motivated. Perhaps they are not motivated to do what you do, does that mean they are not motivated to kill dragons or not motivated to act like selfish jackasses?

Loke is a reasonable fellow but I think what he says is skewed. I agree with some of what you say such as because that is how it always was and is in game. It isn't a charity, and you shouldn't be expected to. But don't try justifying anything you do by comparing it to real life. Because in real life we have checks and balances, laws and regulations for those how do you say, . While the following may be true to some degree if none of the rich and wealthy had a sense of social responsibility society would break down. Those same individuals would have us all living in poverty and being their society and community while they made mad bank and society broke down and the country went to shit and and...oh wait. Your stance is both perfectly reasonable and at the same completely ignorant and downright insulting. is insulting. The word competition is another word that has twisted meaning here and you misue like 'motivated'. Because to 'compete' here means a whole lot more then having skilled dedicated players capable of killing a mob. Your 'competition' involves sitting at a spawn for days on end at the nicest. At the worst you're training and petitioning and lying cheating stealing whatever it takes to get what you want. To say others don't have the same dedication or will to compete is insulting. It's the lack of will to stoop to that level. Look at what your form of 'competition' has come to here. If you are willing to sit at a mob for 3 days well then sure I suppose you can use the word 'deserve'. To also say these others guilds are more about the guild community is also insulting, as if we are here to serve your community and give you places to sell your dragon loot. We aren't here to keep your fucking community while you kill everything for you and your alts. To 'compete' people would need to be on call 24/7 for a game, sit in one spot for days, train other guilds, steal pulls, petition GMS every spawn, and be a key ingredient in coming up with some idiotic system that curries to anarchy. The guilds who choose not to do that aren't shying away from 'competition'. They're choosing not to go at this game like you do. 'Competition' here is twisted and warped. People do whatever it takes to stay 'on top' but what does that even mean here? The end justifies the means? Do you mean we aren't willing to 'compete' when we choose not to gank another guilds' target?

You are correct in that you shouldn't have to do 'hand-outs' but don't think you are the few who are actually are 'competitive.' Because whenever I have had my guild in position having won the race in the true nature of competition it turns out to be meaningless because the word here has no meaning. This is what 'competition' here is and to say we are not 'competitive' because we choose not to act like this is moronic.

This is what I have seen as 'competition' here on this server.

P99 'competition'



Don't assume because other people don't play like you they're just drawing enjoyment from casually leveling characters as you do from killing raid mobs. Your patronizing bullshit makes me sick with your for those dedicated and legit players. The same players you respect so much you make sure those people get absolutely no chance at anything in the raid scene by doing whatever it takes to roll over them and fuck them in the ass? Spare me your inane drivel and quit fucking patronizing the people who choose not to partake in the behavior that has been exhibited by what you call 'competition' on this server in the 'end-game' here. You kill the mobs, grats you. You put the time in you get the loot more power to you. No one can fault you or judge you. But unlike live this is the only 'community' left. There aren't 20 other servers for people to spread out on. There is but one. On live people left those servers where guilds behaved like they do here. And while you disregard everyone else as being lazy, non-competitive' casual community building slackers and people feed their greed with no consideration for the 'community' there will be consequences. I don't know what will happen but I doubt 600 people will be in TR or whatever guild it happens to be. I don't know if it ends up just being one guild and that is all as everyone else tires of not being able to enjoy the server. If you really wanted 'competition' when another guild stepped up you would let them have their chances instead of rolling in and sniping a mob from them. If you wanted the server to thrive and build, that is. If you want to encourage 12 year old wow players to come here and join your guild for 4 months until they're bored, please continue. But just like in that video, the people who get there first don't win the 'competition'. Instead the people who come in later just abandon courtesy and decency because all the give a shit about are themselves. And since you aren't forced to behave like fucking humans here you think you are the better 'competitors'? You sit there with your smugness and say you appreciate and respect and all that bullshit the guilds who are here casually as long as they don't dare think they can have a shot at anything on this server. And no matter what you spew from that hole in your face you call a suck your actions speak oh so louder. The instant they might get some of what you think is YOUR loot we see where things really stand.

P99 'competition'

Every single time I have encountered your guilds at a target it has gone the same. Be it at efreeti, Tranix, myconid king, Traks lair, Fearplane, hateplane, nagafen, sky, you name it I have witnessed the same behavior. Either you send in bards to sit in our raid and charm mobs as they spawn in hateplane, or wait till someone pulls fire giants in front of Tranix then run up and snipe him. Wait for a guild to clear fear and run in and kill Tranix. Wait for them to clear isle 3 and then pull Gorgalosk before they finish counting their keys and end their raid because they can't key up people now. Train giants and whatever else in solb to wipe a naggy attempt because you don't want the guild that got there first getting your loot. Invis by people camping the king and sit on the fort and claim it is now yours due to server rules. If that fails petition and train. Every single time there has been something wanted I have witnessed a complete and utter lack of respect and 'competition'. You've always been someone I could talk to and argue with or disagree with but to hell with this patronizing bullshit. You ought to think about what happens when there is one guild and no one else, oh how much fun that will be. Log onto a server with 120 people and either go to your raid or sit in ec tunnel with the rest of the server. Will you still feel so dedicated and competitive then? Your actions aren't in the nature of 'competition', your actions are killing every thing about competition. When Divinity no longer raids, when BDA, VD, Taken and any other guilds no longer raid what will you have then for your community? If you wanted competition you would have been behaving differently, and the server history speaks for itself. Those on top do whatever it takes to ensure not that there isn't 'competition' but to make it impossible for any real 'competition' to take place. All I hear is talk and I have seen absolutely nothing in the form of real actions in game. Variance to help competition only it variances itself to spawn when everyone in a 'casual' guild logs to sleep or work. There is no 'competition' and all the talk about wanting it is bullshit. Transparent bullshit. Because if you gave a rats ass about competition or the community there would be some kind of agreement worked out to where the hardcore raiders and people who put more time in would get more and true competition actually existed and at the same time people in the more normal casual guilds would still have a chance. You want to be absolutely fair? Either do that or get rid of the rules. Whomever gets the kill gets the win. Trains, ksing, you name it are all legal. The fact you sit behind the rules we have now and claim that you act civilized is a farce. They are just there to make you feel justified with how you behave to others. You want absolute fairness? Fuck FTE and all that jazz on raid targets. Compete all out, no holds barred. Hell make raid areas PVP flagged. You all act like animals anyway who want true competition? Go with kill or be killed then and quit hiding behind the facade of 'competition' we have now.
And ffs get rid of variance. I am sick of logging in and yet another mob has died 'in window' to the same people who don't work or sleep. Another facade. Go back to classic.

P99 'competition'

Laughing at this post. Shaere, if your guild can't compete it's no one's fault but your own. Be better and mobilize better. Stop blaming everyone for your problems. No one has poopsocked anything but Trakanon / VS (and it was for 2-3 kills out of 35+ and not recently). Those other ~9-10 odd mobs per cycle? What's your excuse for not being able to kill them? Yeah, I thought so. Stop whining and play better.

And learn how to use some paragraphs.

[SupaflyIRL]

I didn't read any of that and the level of care and effort in this thread is astonishing. You should all take a moment of introspection and then immediately act on your findings, which will either be an awakening or suicide (most likely suicide).

[Taryth]

Originally Posted by Tunarian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's shit like this that ran off new players and still does. It's shit like this that caused the overuse of instances. We all loved raiding back in the day but only a select few were able to get into the elite guilds. This caused developers to create instances, this caused us to hate these games, and ultimately caused us to play on this server again.

Think outside the fuckin' bun.

It's no different from the EC market guilds buying up everything and then selling at hugely inflated prices. Just makes the barrier of entry for new people that much worse.

People are greedy and do stupid, short-sighted things. Especially when they can do it without anyone knowing who they are.

[CHusk2]

Hey guys,

Before I start, let me just point out that the paradigm I'm coming from is that of someone who has never raided, but is interested in raiding. That being said:

I've thoroughly enjoyed the (significant) non-flame portions of this thread, such as the comments by Shaere, Tiggles, and others who have found excellent ways to draw attention to a problem (which I was personally mostly unaware of) while also providing cited and informed insight into the current situation.

Say what you want about either side, but I can't think of another mmo out there where such detail and "case structure" would be presented in order to articulate a point. It's very much more a legitimate debate, or maybe more of a loose stating of ideas, than a flat out flame, which I think is much more productive, and definitely more informative.

So, based on the information I've read, it's looking like I probably won't be raiding Vox/Nagafen. As much fun as I think that would be, I can state with full confidence that I will not be getting bent out of shape about it. I'm still looking forward to learning raid dynamics in other places.

I'm not trying to tell anyone else how to think or feel, but that's my paradigm. It might be different if I were able to play a lot more, but as it stands now I consider myself very fortunate to have this server to play on. This isn't something the development staff "had" to do, and I think that the "thank yous" they get are probably few and far between.

So, at the expense of jumping around and sounding somewhat incoherent, I'll conclude by saying that I will continue to enjoy this excellent game/community whenever I possibly can. If there's a Vox/Nagafen raid in my near future, that's cool. If not, it doesn't really change the enjoyment factor for me.

I think it's important to stop and smell the proverbial roses every once in a while. Getting laid from time to time doesn't hurt, either.

Alkaiser Baneofmistmoore - 45 Erudite Cleric of Prexus

[choklo]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is the nature of the beast man. In every facet of life, to expect competitive, motivated individuals put aside what they feel is in their best interest in favor of what is in your best interest is unrealistic. Maybe that is selfish, but that regard I guess we live in a selfish world...
I'm sure I'll get a bunch of "wow, this is just a video game" replies, but I tend to apply that same line of reasoning to every aspect of life, video game or not. If you want something that someone else also wants - you need to work harder and get a competitive edge to beat them out, otherwise you're going to get left in the dust.

This may be the best summary of the problem on p1999. If this was Intel vs. AMD(capitalism) or New York vs Boston(professional sports) or conservatives vs progressives(politics) I'd get it. But this is more like a group of kindergardeners taking over the big slide on the playground. The other kids want a turn, but the select group keep it for themselves, because they can.
That is until the teachers intervene and make everyone play nice again.
It's a game guys. Why do some people have to turn it into their 2nd or even first job and treat it like it's more important than everything else in their (sad?) lives?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Ring [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Laughing at this post. Shaere, if your guild can't compete it's no one's fault but your own. Be better and mobilize better.

His post isn't about that. Here are the key points:

The word competition is another word that has twisted meaning here and you misue like 'motivated'. Because to 'compete' here means a whole lot more then having skilled dedicated players capable of killing a mob. Your 'competition' involves sitting at a spawn for days on end at the nicest. At the worst you're training and petitioning and lying cheating stealing whatever it takes to get what you want. To say others don't have the same dedication or will to compete is insulting. It's the lack of will to stoop to that level.

If you really wanted 'competition' when another guild stepped up you would let them have their chances instead of rolling in and sniping a mob from them.

Either you send in bards to sit in our raid and charm mobs as they spawn in hateplane, or wait till someone pulls fire giants in front of Tranix then run up and snipe him. Wait for a guild to clear fear and run in and kill CT. Wait for them to clear isle 3 and then pull Gorgalosk before they finish counting their keys and end their raid because they can't key up people now. Train giants and whatever else in solb to wipe a naggy attempt because you don't want the guild that got there first getting your loot. Invis by people camping the king and sit on the fort and claim it is now yours due to server rules. If that fails petition and train. Every single time there has been something wanted I have witnessed a complete and utter lack of respect and 'competition'.

You don't want competition, so stop saying you do. Because the above things happen when you get competition, and because most of us aren't willing to stoop to that level, fuck it, have the mob if it's that important to you. If that's how you want to "win", fine. If your idea of winning a bicycle race is to suckerpunch other people competing against you, pushing them into oncoming traffic with your foot, shoving a lead pipe in their spokes, using a blowgun to fire a tranquilizer dart in their neck, etc, so you can be the only one crossing the finish line at the end to the point where no one even wants to show up to the race next time because it's less trouble just to let you win... was it really about who was faster on a bicycle? No.

I can't speak for the others here, but I'm not wasting my personal time helping my guild mobilize and attempt to engage a raid target just to have some douchewafflery (see above) happen that wastes all our time for the night.

[Tarathiel]

Originally Posted by CHusk2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey guys,

Before I start, let me just point out that the paradigm I'm coming from is that of someone who has never raided, but is interested in raiding. That being said:

I've thoroughly enjoyed the (significant) non-flame portions of this thread, such as the comments by Shaere, Tiggles, and others who have found excellent ways to draw attention to a problem (which I was personally mostly unaware of) while also providing cited and informed insight into the current situation.

Say what you want about either side, but I can't think of another mmo out there where such detail and "case structure" would be presented in order to articulate a point. It's very much more a legitimate debate, or maybe more of a loose stating of ideas, than a flat out flame, which I think is much more productive, and definitely more informative.

So, based on the information I've read, it's looking like I probably won't be raiding Vox/Nagafen. As much fun as I think that would be, I can state with full confidence that I will not be getting bent out of shape about it. I'm still looking forward to learning raid dynamics in other places.

I'm not trying to tell anyone else how to think or feel, but that's my paradigm. It might be different if I were able to play a lot more, but as it stands now I consider myself very fortunate to have this server to play on. This isn't something the development staff "had" to do, and I think that the "thank yous" they get are probably few and far between.

So, at the expense of jumping around and sounding somewhat incoherent, I'll conclude by saying that I will continue to enjoy this excellent game/community whenever I possibly can. If there's a Vox/Nagafen raid in my near future, that's cool. If not, it doesn't really change the enjoyment factor for me.

I think it's important to stop and smell the proverbial roses every once in a while. Getting laid from time to time doesn't hurt, either.

Alkaiser Baneofmistmoore - 45 Erudite Cleric of Prexus

naggy spawned last night as was downed by a combined force of BDA and TR... everything went surprisingly smooth... everyone worked together and there wasnt even any deaths... too bad he dropped shitty loot... haha that being said, dont lose hope young padawan naggy/vox are becoming less and less of a priority to the big guilds so its much easier to either A. mobilize your own guild for the kill OR B. mobilize a pick up raid and kill him all the samie... oh and it should also be noted that the banishment thing is a myth...

[choklo]

That is nice Tarathiel, maybe even a ray of hope. Are you guys going to duo trak too?

[Deadmantis]

Originally Posted by CHusk2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey guys,

I think it's important to stop and smell the proverbial roses every once in a while. Getting laid from time to time doesn't hurt, either.

Alkaiser Baneofmistmoore - 45 Erudite Cleric of Prexus

As a former poopsocker and raider from EQ live, I have no interest in raiding on P99. After reading some of the nonsense that goes on here, I am thankful for that.

This time around I am taking time to enjoy the things I skipped over before in the mad rush to get to the endgame. Besides, I am in a better place now compared to 12 years ago. I am no longer living in the basement eating hot pockets. I am now engaged to be married, working a better job, and I enjoy seeing the light of day.
To each his own I guess [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]