Ring 8 drama ( won roll but let another player loot/turn-in)

[Decidability]

Ring 8 drama. Someone won the roll but let another player loot and turn-in quest. Happened today.

Both sides were under fierce "discussion"

[Swish2]

"There are no heroes anymore, just men who follow orders"

[Castigate]

It is absolutely against the agreement.
Just like with scout you may only roll for your own orders/tools, and the staff have enforced it and suspended people over it.
With Ring 8 I'd imagine a lot of people cheat the system though and get away with it purely because after the roll most people leave, and even the ones who stay probably don't fraps the encounter to ensure compliance and/or are too afraid or whatever to actually petition it.

[vorpal_raddish]

This has never been kosher.

[elwing]

Just report them, hopefully the gms will resume enforcing rules one days... We have some cheesy video of individuals/guilds waiting to be banned in their queue...

[NextToTheGods]

The winner of the roll turning in orders and then allowing someone to loot the head and final turn in has happened a ton of times in the past. It doesn’t allow for people to abuse the agreement at all since the character winning the roll has to be the one turning in the orders, however it does allow for the winner to decide where the ring ends up. I really don’t see the issue.

[Castigate]

Like I said, people have done it for sure and gotten away with it, however that does not make it acceptable, and it has never been acceptable under the current rules.
If you're at ring 8 I would highly recommend both recording the entire thing every time, and announcing in advance that you are recording the entire thing every time. In my experience a lot less people show up, quite inexplicably, when you do [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Pootle]

If they both had the orders and then if either of them won, Soap gets the ring???

Basically boils down to Soap having two rolls. Very shady and dick move.

[planarity]

Full disclosure: I am Decidability. The OP here is being cheeky by making a forum account with my toon's name.

Here's who was in the group. The OP must one of them, or some 6th person that joined the group before I did:
[Mon Apr 08 22:12:23 2019] You notify Aavonn that you agree to join the group.
[Mon Apr 08 22:12:23 2019] You have joined the group.
[Mon Apr 08 22:12:26 2019] Soapx has joined the group.
[Mon Apr 08 22:12:29 2019] Staria has joined the group.
[Mon Apr 08 22:12:34 2019] Aleadel has joined the group.
[Mon Apr 08 22:13:13 2019] Alagon has joined the group.

1. Is that the agreement? who agreed? My recollection is that this isn't a player agreement at all, but rather a GM enforced rule that it's a roll, since a clickfest is untenable because everyone loses their marching orders and nobody knows who got the actual turnin (and they were getting swamped with petitions in early velious). As far as I am concerned, the GMs required it to be a roll, and as long as it's a roll and nobody is losing their turnin, then they're happy. That's what I thought anyway.

2. Is there any good reason why the agreement should work as you say? Comparisons to scout are invalid since anyone can get tools for free, so the issue there would be folks with 2 bracers already, or better bracers or range item, or int casters etc. getting tools to roll for their friends. (Like AM people have been caught doing before). If you make the obvious requirement that only people with marching orders can roll, then the roll won't be abused in this way. I find it convenient to get to ring 7 on my ranger because I can track and so on, then loot it on a different toon that can't get a ring 7 so easily. I've done this 4-5 times. Nobody cares because, if it's a crime, then it's a victimless crime. Today, I wanted to give it to my friend Soapx. If I had known it was a rule, then I would have looted the head on my ranger, who still needs a ring8. Soapx also rolled today because he also had a marching orders.

3. If the agreement works as you say, how is anyone supposed to know this? The rules are scout are quite easy to find on this forum with a search. I tried for longer than I care to admit to find any hint on this forum that the rules require the roll winner to loot the head. I found absolutely nothing.

So Aleadel petitioned me (not clear why, since if I wasn't allowed to give it to my friend, I would have just looted it myself), and here's what happened:

[Mon Apr 08 22:36:41 2019] Andakos -> Decidability: So, I have a petition here that says you won tonight's Ring 8 roll, but gave the head to Soapx. Is that true?
[Mon Apr 08 22:36:45 2019] You have been removed from the group.
[Mon Apr 08 22:37:21 2019] Decidability -> Andakos: yes that's true. my understanding of the rules was that this was OK, and I've done it before.
[Mon Apr 08 22:38:08 2019] Decidability -> Andakos: since MQing is a part of the game, and only people who have marching orders are allowed to roll, it makes total sense to me.
[Mon Apr 08 22:38:41 2019] Andakos -> Decidability: It is not allowed for the ring roll. You are only allowed to roll for yourself.
[Mon Apr 08 22:39:21 2019] Decidability -> Andakos: well I rolled for myself to turn in orders. I honestly thought that was how it worked. and it made total sense to me
[Mon Apr 08 22:39:36 2019] Decidability -> Andakos: is there a rule for this posted somewhere?
[Mon Apr 08 22:39:47 2019] Decidability -> Andakos: I have no interest in breaking any rules.
[Mon Apr 08 22:39:53 2019] Andakos -> Decidability: Unfortunatly no. Both accounts will be suspended until Llandris can remove the loot.
[Mon Apr 08 22:40:13 2019] Decidability -> Andakos: there is not a rule posted anywhere?
[Mon Apr 08 22:40:19 2019] Your eyes stop tingling.
[Mon Apr 08 22:40:24 2019] Decidability -> Andakos: that hardly seems fair if not....

[Mon Apr 08 22:45:02 2019] Primality -> andakos: hi Decidability here. can you help me understand this?
[Mon Apr 08 22:45:17 2019] Primality -> andakos: I did not know there was such a rule, are the rules posted anywhere?
[Mon Apr 08 22:46:28 2019] Primality -> andakos: I am always happy to follow any rule that I am aware of.
[Mon Apr 08 22:50:56 2019] Primality -> andakos: Please let me know if you are able to find out how I should have known this was a rule? or if not that, how you know it's a rule?
[Mon Apr 08 22:52:00 2019] Andakos -> Primality: This has been an enforced player agreement for sometime now. I'll try to find the thread for you shortly.
[Mon Apr 08 22:59:50 2019] Primality -> andakos: OK I appreciate it.
[Mon Apr 08 23:00:22 2019] Primality -> Andakos: actually my understanding is that this has always been a GM rule, and didn't start as a player agreement. the fact it's a roll, anyway
[Mon Apr 08 23:25:19 2019] Primality -> andakos: Just spent all that time looking on the forums. I saw a few things about it being important that the roll winner turn in the orders, but nothing about the roll winner looting the head
[Mon Apr 08 23:56:23 2019] Primality -> andakos: Any updates? I don't mean to push you, and I know you're a volunteer.
[Mon Apr 08 23:57:10 2019] Andakos -> Primality: both accouns will remain suspended while the matter is being reviewed.
[Mon Apr 08 23:57:23 2019] Primality -> Andakos: OK.
[Mon Apr 08 23:57:41 2019] Primality -> Andakos: I did my best find any hint that winner must loot head, on the forums for like an hour
[Mon Apr 08 23:58:07 2019] Primality -> Andakos: can't find any hint of that. If you can't either, then it seems unreasonable to punish someone for this because they should have known it?
[Mon Apr 08 23:59:22 2019] Primality -> Andakos: I just want to reiterate, I have npo interest in breaking the rules. I had no idea that was a rule (and I am still unsure of this?)
[Mon Apr 08 23:59:27 2019] Primality -> Andakos: no*

So if both myself and a guide are unable with serious effort to find any hint at what the "rules" are, how is any random person who wants to do the quest supposed to know what they are?

[planarity]

Originally Posted by Pootle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If they both had the orders and then if either of them won, Soap gets the ring???

Basically boils down to Soap having two rolls. Very shady and dick move.

But we both went to the work of getting the orders. What business is it of yours what ultimately ends up happening to it. I could have looted the head on my ranger then MQed him the ring 9, which is the exact same thing except it requires 2 people to poopsock dain for hours instead of 1.

If me you and soap were camping fungi king, then we all roll and I win and give the fungi to soap, is that a shady dick move?