your hopes for red99 2.0

[Gustoo]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think people would be surprised how quick high level teammates would be to protect their lower level allies. I mean, beyond the fact that it's simply fun in itself to PvP and gives higher level players something to do outside of raids, there's also a very practical purpose: because those lower level players are the future members of your high level guilds. They are your feeder system. You NEED to protect them and keep them from being griefed off the server because they represent an asset that appreciates over time. So controlling leveling zones has very real strategic value for teams and is something they need to prioritize as much as acquiring gear. This is the entire concept of zone control and adds a huge layer of richness and complexity to EQ that is only possible with unrestricted Teams PvP.

As an example of how this actually plays out: back in the day on SZ Velious was mostly controlled by the Neutral (Newt) team. So most Newts would do their 30+ leveling there. And because it was safely nestled in EW and fairly isolated, Crystal Caverns was the primary Newt leveling dungeon for 40-50. I played an Iksar (Evil team) Monk on SZ, but I knew CC like the back of my hand from having leveled there extensively on my old server. So I used to solo PvP there a lot and could basically shut the zone down at will by dropping trains on groups and picking people off in the chaos. But I could not get away with this for long, because as soon as word spread that I was there, the Newts would call for backup and a handful of skilled 50+ Newt PvPers would show up to run me off (I was level 45-50 at the time). This was basically standard practice for any zone that a team owned: if you were on an opposing team you could not expect to safely hang out in an enemy zone for long without a fight. And if you were outleveled and outnumbered by the enemy and it was not a fair fight, so be it - that's what you get for invading enemy territory.

Yeah confirmed this is better than no item loot custom red.

Custom teams sullon or rallos plx

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think people would be surprised how quick high level teammates would be to protect their lower level allies. I mean, beyond the fact that it's simply fun in itself to PvP and gives higher level players something to do outside of raids, there's also a very practical purpose: because those lower level players are the future members of your high level guilds. They are your feeder system. You NEED to protect them and keep them from being griefed off the server because they represent an asset that appreciates over time. So controlling leveling zones has very real strategic value for teams and is something they need to prioritize as much as acquiring gear. This is the entire concept of zone control and adds a huge layer of richness and complexity to EQ that is only possible with unrestricted Teams PvP.

As an example of how this actually plays out: back in the day on SZ Velious was mostly controlled by the Neutral (Newt) team. So most Newts would do their 30+ leveling there. And because it was safely nestled in EW and fairly isolated, Crystal Caverns was the primary Newt leveling dungeon for 40-50. I played an Iksar (Evil team) Monk on SZ, but I knew CC like the back of my hand from having leveled there extensively on my old server. So I used to solo PvP there a lot and could basically shut the zone down at will by dropping trains on groups and picking people off in the chaos. But I could not get away with this for long, because as soon as word spread that I was there, the Newts would call for backup and a handful of skilled 50+ Newt PvPers would show up to run me off (I was level 45-50 at the time). This was basically standard practice for any zone that a team owned: if you were on an opposing team you could not expect to safely hang out in an enemy zone for long without a fight. And if you were outleveled and outnumbered by the enemy and it was not a fair fight, so be it - that's what you get for invading enemy territory.

Thats not useful for new or unestablished players as everyone hides behind /anon so you have no way to identify the cavalry you could call in.

The 'local defense' channel sounds like it could help that a little.

[Gustoo]

Definitely would be a team channel. Should be in game so that people don't have to use non client chats to get the job done.

[Sear]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe teams, but honestly red99 was as polarized as teams could ever be. If you wanted to join the other guild, you had to literally insult your former friends and talk shit on them constantly with the new guild.

I'm sure this is true, but it's nice for casual players to have a team right from level 1 instead of rolling unguilded on a top-heavy server.

Teams based on race/religion minimizes the trend of one guild monopolizing the server and players not fighting eachother while leveling up. That was never much of an issue on the teams servers. You had a team, and you had your zones to defend. Who you attack and don't attack was built-in to the ruleset.

The inevitable problem with any P99 red server (even a teams one) is going to be population. It's realistically not going to support anything but PvP over raid targets at level 50, and for most of us who played on live we aren't going to get the 1-49 experience that we remembered.

Before VZTZ bit the dust I was messing with a custom server that only had the Faydwer continent but still had a full range of PvE content. The idea was to solve the population issue by condensing the # of zones. You can't have these zones with 0-5 players in them. It's a radically different experience than what was "classic", and imo there's no real point to ever releasing another PvP server with Kunark or Velious enabled. Just having the vanilla zone real estate is already pushing it into ghost town territory.

[Old_PVP]

Originally Posted by Danger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've become a believer in nilbog's idea:

East (Red) VS West (Blue) hardcoded teams

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

+/- 4 level restriction beginning at level 2 that perhaps widens the higher level you get, raid zones are FFA.

I like this... seems pretty damn balanced too. Disable cross-team communication / trade and enable no level restrictions though. It would be perfect. Basically WoW but an EQWoW.

[Jibartik]

I love mmo mechanics, I love pvp, I love the idea of an open world mmo pvp game but each one suffers from the exact same problems.

Personally, I think this is the best outlet for that type of gameplay out right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKbXcsa5Otk

Id play eq pvp if it was like this game. Maybe rise of zek is good. I think sounds like the best EQ pvp but I have not much interest in setting it up to try. But sounds cool to me.

Give me a server that resets every 24 hours, has 5000% exp bonus, no level ranges, one by one zones fill with the plague causing damage (like those Battle Royalle games) and a set up a leaderboard and Id be logging in every night.

[Sear]

Was that actually a Nilbog idea? Not sure about the territory balance but the map still gave my neckbeard a boner.

[Gustoo]

Totally was. The pvp runs deep in the mines of moria or whatever.

Sear I agree about reduce physical geography for eq pvp. Kunark definitely means "wheres all the peeps'

Thats why its fun to think what it would take to get some actual population numbers over here.

[Gustoo]

Also there are people that play WOW pvp and think they are real masochists and its possible to taunt them into this game. Teams is the only way that wow guys will be able to play so stealing that population back maybe worth trying to run teams.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Danger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vexenu, I've really enjoyed your input to this thread, if you had to develop the mechanics for a new pvp server what would you suggest to the staff? How would you divvy up teams and so on, what loot mechanic (if any)

This is something I've theorycrafted a lot over the years. I think Sullon Zek's ruleset should be used as the starting point, with three hardcoded teams (no cross-teaming) and unrestricted level range PvP. I would also allow training as a tactic. Basically encourage a very laissez faire approach by the GMs: anything goes besides hacking, boxing, etc... It should be a feeling of anything goes total war between the teams. This also makes the server much easier to police by the GMs and discourages favoritism and rule lawyering. Three teams is better than two because it creates a much more chaotic and unpredictable atmosphere. But one of the big problems with SZ was that the Evil team enjoyed too many advantages over the Good and Neutral teams. They not only had better races, but they had the entire continent of Kunark as their home turf. So while the Goods and Neutrals were fighting each other constantly to level on Antonica, Odus and Faydwer, Evils could mostly level in peace on Kunark. So SZ played out with the Evil team snowballing the early leveling advantage Kunark provided into dominance for most of the server's life. So you'd need factors in place to prevent that from repeating itself.

Another consideration is that you really want to encourage zone control by each team, and so grouping teams geographically makes a lot of sense. This allows each team to have relatively safe low and mid-level zones to level in and naturally groups teams together to better defend against enemy incursions into their territory.

A third consideration is that each team needs to have access to each class if they are going to be equally viable for raiding. It's just not fair to deny a team Monks or Bards or Shaman and expect that endgame-focused players would bother to roll there knowing they would be screwed when it came to raiding.

All that being the case, I would divvy the teams up in the guise of a Norrathian civil war, with three factions fighting each other, which are:

Qeynos Team
- Humans
- Barbarians
- Erudites
- Half-Elves

This team would naturally control all of Odus and the area around Qeynos, extending from Halas through the Karanas and into Highpass Hold.

The Dark Team
- Ogres
- Trolls
- Dark Elves
- Iksar
- Traitor Humans

The Dark Team would naturally control all of Southern Antonica, from Grobb/Oggok to Lavastorm, including Freeport where the Traitor Humans would start.

The Shortie Team
- Dwarves
- Gnomes
- Wood Elves
- High Elves
- Halflings
- Traitor Barbarians
- Traitor Humans

The shorties would control all of Faydwer.

So you basically have a race war server with humans/Barbs as the wild card being able to defect to any team. This is necessary in order to give the Dark team access to Monks, Bards, Druids, Rangers and Paladins (mostly the first two) and the shortie team access to Monks, Shaman, Necros and Shadowknights (mostly the first two). The Qeynos team would already have access to all classes.

You would need to make some minor modifications for this ruleset to be viable. Though unclassic, I think these changes are minor enough and justifiable enough in the lore given the context of a Norrathian civil war disrupting the normal order of things and creating refugees:

1) Halflings allowed to start in Kelethin.
2) Shortie Humans and Barbs allowed to start in Kelethin.
3) Monk and Shaman trainers placed in Kelethin.
4) Necro and SK trainers placed near the chessboard in BB.

The end result is that each team would have access to every class and would have natural zone control over large contiguous areas of Norrath. You also preserve a degree of RP in that you have teams that make sense within the context of EQ lore. Humans (and the odd Barb Shaman) as wildcards make sense, with the other races being more locked in to their faction alignments/racial loyalties.

Loot mechanics: Item loot has its advantages (the emphasis on NO DROP gear adds a neat layer of complexity to the game) but overall it's just too much of a turn off for most players to stomach. I would instead suggest full coin loot and 50% XP loss for a death to a player within 5 levels of you. If you die to a player who cons red to you (>5 levels higher) you lose no XP and they are unable to loot anything from you. They can kill you but you don't lose anything. Loot and scoot should be up to the teams themselves to grant and police. A respected foe might be granted safe passage. A known shithead/griefer might get corpse camped for days. No guarantees. Corpse camping should be a legal tactic/option.

Kunark and Velious:
The expansions need to be treated judiciously, because they both offer challenges for PvP balance on a Teams server. Kunark is a problem because it is a natural safe haven for the Dark team. And Velious is a huge problem because high-end Velious gear basically destroys PvP balance by making melee classes unkillable. So the first team to get a bunch of NToV geared melees will steamroll everyone else. That being the case, I would propose the following:

1) Kunark release must be delayed at least 6 months, or even a full year as per the classic timeline. This would probably be enough to prevent the Dark team from completely dominating the continent, because by the time it comes out the other teams will have enough high level players to make successful incursions into Kunark.

2) Velious must be released in two stages: stage 1 would allow access to all of IC, EW and GD, as well as Thurgadin and Kael (minus AoW/Statue). This gives teams access to low-end Velious raid targets and Thurg armor. This stage would probably represent the ideal point of class balance for EQ PvP, and the server could easily be stopped here indefinitely. But it should pause at this stage for at least six months to a year. This would allow each team time to be competitive for acquiring a baseline of Velious gear. Then you could release stage 2 of Velious and open up the high-end ToV loots, which would start to be the end of the good PvP on the server but players would probably demand after getting bored of being stuck in stage 1.

Team balance: The Devs could promote team balance by giving the weakest team a standing 20% XP bonus. Team balance would be determined by a simple function of population and the teamwide K/D ratio and could be calculated on a weekly basis.

Random balance considerations:
- SoulFire is Paladin-only
- Amulet of Necropotence is made NO DROP
- OT hammer is removed from game, or a comparable FV hammer is added via a similar quest in FV. Necessary to prevent Dark team from having a big mobilization advantage in Kunark/Velious era.