Shaman or enchanter

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're the first person I've ever heard call Ogre the "master race." That's something people normally associate with Iksar, and for a reason. Iksar are known to be the best race for every class/race combo possibility once Kunark comes out.

Ok, I'm a longtime shaman from both live and here, and the shaman community on both would generally agree that Ogre is the master race for Shaman, although there's always some debate because people with other races don't want to think they made the "wrong" choice, and so to feel better argue that whatever choice they made is the right one. In contrast Iksar is generally regarded as the worst Shaman race .... at level 60, and people tend to base these comparisons on level 60.

It's not hard to see why:

* Ogre: FSI (useful and unattainable in any other way), can use JBB
* Troll: Regen (useful and unattainable in any other way but Torpor kinda negates it), can use JBB
* Barbarian: Faction (useful, but can be attained other ways), can use JBB
* Iksar: Regen but no JBB (so basically just inferior to a troll ... and again with Torpor regen is almost meaningless)

Now it's true lots of things in Velious have high cold saves, and you won't be using your JBB in Kedge or Permafrost either. But even at 60 it's still a useful tool in many places, even if you just use it for finishing off Seafuries. So from a power-game perspective why pick a race that can't use JBB when you can pick one that can (yet still gets the same regen as an iksar)?

... but again, all of this is at 60, with torpor. For leveling up I think there's a better case for both Troll and Iksar, as regen helps a lot when leveling, and some of the Iksar-specific quests are also nice for leveling gear (or so I've heard; never done an iksar myself). People just tend to focus on level 60 because even if a race gives an XP penalty (which they all do, except Barb) you only level once, and once you do you're stuck at level 60 with the race you picked: if you picked a race for leveling you can't change your mind and choose a different race once you're done leveling.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, I'm a longtime shaman from both live and here, and the shaman community on both would generally agree that Ogre is the master race for Shaman, although there's always some debate because people with other races don't want to think they made the "wrong" choice, and so to feel better argue that whatever choice they made is the right one. In contrast Iksar is generally regarded as the worst Shaman race .... at level 60, and people tend to base these comparisons on level 60.

How hypocritical of you. It's well known that Barbarian is the worst shaman race due to having no racial traits that benefit the class. You go on to ignore that Iksar is going to have a higher AC than barb even when you completely discredit the benefit of regen and focus 100% on how JBB helps when farming... seafuries? No. Just... no. That's trivial. Hell, to me, even having forage is going to be more useful than using a JBB to farm seafuries.

If I want to create a power gamer super class that can solo things as high as WW dragons, I'm not picking Barbarian so I can get spam interrupted while trying to click my JBB. And I'm not picking Troll to have a necklace that gives no benefit to the process.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How hypocritical of you. It's well known that Barbarian is the worst shaman race due to having no racial traits that benefit the class.JBB.

Not sure what "JBB." means, but they do have a racial power: "use JBB". Iksar don't.

All I'm just telling you is what has been repeated a million times on the Shaman's Crucible and on here. There's definitely more agreement about the top than the bottom, so if you want to re-rank the two worst options go right ahead. A power gamer is going to pick the top choice regardless, and anyone picking Barb/Iksar isn't doing it for power-game reasons.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You go on to ignore that Iksar is going to have a higher AC than barb even when you completely discredit the benefit of regen and focus 100% on how JBB helps when farming... seafuries? No. Just... no. That's trivial. Hell, to me, even having forage is going to be more useful than using a JBB to farm seafuries.

Ok, what I said was:

it's still a useful tool in many places

and then I gave the seafuries as a worst case scenario. If all you use your JBB for is that at 60 (and I doubt that will be the case) it is still useful. But regen isn't once you get Torpor ... or at least it's so small it's not noticeable ... but you will notice that Seafury getting killed by your JBB before he gets away.

As for armor, I don't know the details of the Iksar bonus or how much it matters at level 60. All I know is that smarter people than me have done the math, and they didn't consider it good enough to rank Iksar #2 let alone #1.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I want to create a power gamer super class that can solo things as high as WW dragons, I'm not picking Barbarian so I can get spam interrupted while trying to click my JBB. And I'm not picking Troll to have a necklace that gives no benefit to the process.

... ummm ... yeah ... which is why I didn't rank Barb or Troll #1. For WW dragons the ideal choice is the "master (Shaman) race", ie. the race I ranked #1, ie. the one with FSI, ie. the race you've started this whole argument about, ie. Ogre.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... ummm ... yeah ... which is why I didn't rank Barb or Troll #1. For WW dragons the ideal choice is the "master (Shaman) race", ie. the race I ranked #1, ie. the one with FSI, ie. the race you've started this whole argument about, ie. Ogre.

You spelled "Iksar" wrong. I'm glad you pulled out the part about FSI being the best overall racial feat. I know that I would at least rank Sneak and Regen above FSI.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You spelled "Iksar" wrong. I'm glad you pulled out the part about FSI being the best overall racial feat. I know that I would at least rank Sneak and Regen above FSI.

This post foreshadows Luclin!

[brecon]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure what "JBB." means, but they do have a racial power: "use JBB". Iksar don't.

All I'm just telling you is what has been repeated a million times on the Shaman's Crucible and on here. There's definitely more agreement about the top than the bottom, so if you want to re-rank the two worst options go right ahead. A power gamer is going to pick the top choice regardless, and anyone picking Barb/Iksar isn't doing it for power-game reasons.



Ok, what I said was:



and then I gave the seafuries as a worst case scenario. If all you use your JBB for is that at 60 (and I doubt that will be the case) it is still useful. But regen isn't once you get Torpor ... or at least it's so small it's not noticeable ... but you will notice that Seafury getting killed by your JBB before he gets away.

As for armor, I don't know the details of the Iksar bonus or how much it matters at level 60. All I know is that smarter people than me have done the math, and they didn't consider it good enough to rank Iksar #2 let alone #1.



... ummm ... yeah ... which is why I didn't rank Barb or Troll #1. For WW dragons the ideal choice is the "master (Shaman) race", ie. the race I ranked #1, ie. the one with FSI, ie. the race you've started this whole argument about, ie. Ogre.

I've done the math. At 60, assuming full spells, there are zero times when you should click a JBB unless it is to finish a runner or pull. Even then I prefer to pull with malo. With the same time as it takes to cast a JBB, you can torp/canni and get mana for a more efficient dot. You can find it somewhere in my history.

No shaman race is clearly best at 60. FSI for Ogres is the best racial. Iksar bonus is useful. Barb spiritists hammer is great until you get smoldering weap from VP, even at 60 when slow tanking. The main problem with iksar is no slam - our only potential interrupt.

[Darkatar]

Originally Posted by brecon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The main problem with iksar is no slam - our only potential interrupt.

You could try to proc Howling Harpoon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[brecon]

Truth. I personally never tried to use that instead of a Cudgel or a Barb hammer....i just tried to slam/push with the pet...but I feel ya [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

Originally Posted by brecon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No shaman race is clearly best at 60. FSI for Ogres is the best racial. Iksar bonus is useful. Barb spiritists hammer is great until you get smoldering weap from VP, even at 60 when slow tanking. The main problem with iksar is no slam - our only potential interrupt.

While I've never owned a level 60 ogre shammy, I have owned a barbarian spiritist's hammer (both before and after the proc-nerf). I'm pretty certain that FSI is better (it would have to be pretty lame for the "proc a JBB hit once per century" hammer to beat it).

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone should play an Ogre Shaman (obviously I play a Barb), because the differences between the races just aren't that big. Shaman aren't like (say) Monks or Necromancers where you're pretty much making a mistake if you don't pick Iksar.

If you are going to compare those small differences Ogres do win. But in a level 60 PvP match, or a who can kill mobs the fastest match, or any similar competition a Shaman's race is going to be way way down the list of what matters, while skill and gear will be way higher.

[brecon]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

While I've never owned a level 60 ogre shammy, I have owned a barbarian spiritist's hammer (both before and after the proc-nerf). I'm pretty certain that FSI is better (it would have to be pretty lame for the "proc a JBB hit once per century" hammer to beat it).

Idk I feel like you're splitting hairs here. I don't think there's a single true min-maxer that disagrees that a fully geared 60 shaman with all spells and optimal Velious gear is going to be an Ogre. The only other defensible race is Iksar. The main fight is how much 'better' that really makes them.

Barb hammer is a great perk. It doesn't proc once a century - at the dex rates you achieve with dex+focus, it will be close to 1.5 procs a minute on average. Those procs are free extra damage and can also interrupt casts. Is it gamebreaking? No. But there's a reason every geared VP shaman wants the Cudgel and the Snare piercer. And over the duration of a cliff golem kill, you're happy for any extra damage. If you are not raiding VP with your shaman, but plan to get Torpor and solo grind POM, Cliff Golems, etc...it's a nice item that only Barbs get.

When soloing cliff golems you should never be at risk of a single stun killing you. A stun is an annoyance and forces a recast. If you were at risk of a stun killing you...then FSI is going to be the better call. The fight is just going to last longer without the extra proc damage, but it will leave you victorious.

I go Barb bc I have dreams of one day getting the panda crown from DN.