Push and gating

[eisley]

So, I've been wondering.

Why did we remove push? Anyone who played this video game back then knows push was a thing. It is precisely why Hate was so much harder than Fear - you had to push, the spite golems, clerics, and encs especially.

Lady Vox. How did you interrupt her CH? Everyone put on fast weapons and pushed.

Which made me remember another thing. Gates.

Why did we remove Gate from Aaryonar, Jorlleag, Zlandicar, Klandicar, and others? They all gated. Even when you fought them on their spawn point. Over and over. It healed 20% health each time. How did you prevent it? Push. For Aaryonar, you fought at the top of the ramp, clerics around the corner, and had to strategically push him back and forth along the wall, that's part of what made that fight so hard - the constant flips, and if he gated, you were screwed. I distinctly remember you had to swap sides precisely every time his gate was interrupted, otherwise he'd either gate, or you'd push him into the Clerics, or you'd push him into the drakes. This is why NToV was so hard to "break" - learning the Aary push was very difficult for most guilds, then it opens up a sea of free loot dragons.

Klandicar - gated back to his spawn point in the middle of the valley. That's literally what made this monster hard. He feared and gated, making it difficult to push.

Zlandicar - c'mon, anyone who played during Velious must remember this one. Zlandicar was one of the hardest fights in Velious because of the required push. AoE stun AND fear, plus and annoying place to fight. If he gated, you'd then get stuck in a loop of him gating over and over once he got back to low enough health. Also, he casted Necromancer spells.

All these monsters gated on p99 Velious release. All these monsters were interrupted by push at p99 Velious release. Velketor is an even more obvious one. You fought him in his room, the only way to win was to out-push his gate. Hell, even Cazic Thule gated.

Searching around, the only proof I can for changing push was Haynar simply declaring it so.

[jbel123]

aary is rooted. so obviously won't gate
jorlleag probably does gate? no one fights him outside his lair any more
zlandi does gate if you fight him outside his lair. which is why we fight him inside his lair.
klandi? idk

[Solist]

Originally Posted by jbel123 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

aary is rooted. so obviously won't gate
jorlleag probably does gate? no one fights him outside his lair any more
zlandi does gate if you fight him outside his lair. which is why we fight him inside his lair.
klandi? idk

Someone who never played classic velious ToV detected.

[Coeur]

You may or may not be able to argue some of those points, if you provide real evidence, but most of those changes here are to reduce the amount of petitions the staff is sent imo.

[jbel123]

i mean - is he complaining about rooted dragons? if so, yawn.

it read to me that he came back and didn't realise that gate mechanics aren't really different.

[Croco]

Originally Posted by Coeur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You may or may not be able to argue some of those points, if you provide real evidence, but most of those changes here are to reduce the amount of petitions the staff is sent imo.

Can you point me to the real in era evidence that was used to justify the change to it's current state? Asking for the entire server.

[Pringles]

This thread, I think, and work by Torven. You can also find a bunch of threads on noows.com Wayback machine talking about gate being uninterruptible in era

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ight=interrupt

[Croco]

Originally Posted by Pringles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This thread, I think, and work by Torven. You can also find a bunch of threads on noows.com Wayback machine talking about gate being uninterruptible in era

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ight=interrupt

All I see in this thread is a LOT of conjecture with no real evidence.

There's a lot of people in the thread talking about how they "feel" things worked back in era while posting no proof to back up their vague "feelings". One person states "i can't believe people would be making posts like this in era." with regard to it being difficult for melee to interrupt casters with just attack push. It's very easy to understand or believe why people would make posts like that, it's because people in those days didn't know shit, especially people posting on message boards or allah. EQ players have always kept as much information about the game as closely guarded a secret as they possibly could.

That's why it's so difficult to find people talking about certain things in era, sneak pulling for example (which does have in era proof), because people didn't divulge info until years and years after the fact or after it was taken out of the game. I started playing just after velious came out and I finished the monk epic quest sometime in the summer of 2001. One of the first things I noticed was just how easy it was now to interrupt casters by pushing them long distances during a fight because monk fists were so fast compared to almost every weapon the average player had access to. People on random message boards and allah didn't realize you could reliably interrupt mobs with melee because almost none of them had decent haste and their weapons were basically garbage. You're never going to interrupt a mob with melee push when your haste item is an fbss and your weapon(s) has a .3 ratio.

The evidence posted saying that melee could never reliably interrupt casters with melee push either never played a melee character or they're basing their information off playing a knight with a 2 hander or very slow 1 hander most likely. You needed fast consistent push like a monk with 2x 9/16 weapons to interrupt a caster.

In just a short time searching on allah, not even going to the wayback machine, I found 10 instances of people talking about melee push to interrupt casters being a common tactic, 4 posts being in era and 6 of them being from 2002 and 2003. The current state of melee push on p99 is NOT CLASSIC. People in era just didn't know shit and information didn't flow freely in those days.

Proof:https://imgur.com/a/cqj4q6M

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

snip

Proof:https://imgur.com/a/cqj4q6M

I'm good with going with Torven's data over the conjecture. It's the most supported hypothesis that I have seen, as the those eqmac logs are the closest data to this era available. Taking that as a bedrock, it isn't a stretch to side with all the other anecdotal data.
You have to admit that your own personal experience is on the same level of all that conjecture. Memories are quite hyperbolic, especially 20 years out [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Short of trilogy, or earlier, source code coming out to play I don't see this being able to be proved to the same degree as the current implementation. It would take a monumental mother lode find at this point I think.

i too am very qq about tick/sneak pulling. however that is a case of something being too imbalanced and taken out, even though the devs know that it was a thing in-era.

[Croco]

Originally Posted by Pringles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm good with going with Torven's data over the conjecture. It's the most supported hypothesis that I have seen, as the those eqmac logs are the closest data to this era available. Taking that as a bedrock, it isn't a stretch to side with all the other anecdotal data.
You have to admit that your own personal experience is on the same level of all that conjecture. Memories are quite hyperbolic, especially 20 years out [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Short of trilogy, or earlier, source code coming out to play I don't see this being able to be proved to the same degree as the current implementation. It would take a monumental mother lode find at this point I think.

i too am very qq about tick/sneak pulling. however that is a case of something being too imbalanced and taken out, even though the devs know that it was a thing in-era.

Nothing in those screen shots is conjecture. Most of that thread you posted however was. I don't know who Torven is or where he got his data from or what his bias is so he's no golden idol to me. The fact that it was taken as fact and implemented that casting could no longer be interrupted with push, even though that is clearly a classic mechanic, is enough of a reason for me to completely discount Torven and not trust his "data".

The change that was made to push was neither classic nor did it give p99 a more classic "feel". It failed on both fronts.