BDA to Phinigel

[Raev]

Originally Posted by xexbis0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You my boy Raev, but you're way off on this one and the self reflection stuff is really kind of laughable. Every single guild had a part in the destruction of the rotation.

The tiny guilds were completely unreasonable to expect the larger guilds to stick with it without giving them any sort of kudos for not allowing targets to lapse into FFA. People in Taken didn't get the luxury of killing only 6pm CST time slotted mobs. We had to answer the bell at any time of day because we were 1 of 2 that could kill anything at anytime and became the class R safety net.

Basically at the time the R/C system was implemented, there were three classes of guilds:

• C (TMO/IB): capable killing targets 24/7 within 5 minutes
• R+ (Taken, BDA, Divinity): capable of killing targets 24/7 within an hourish
• R- (A-Team, Europa, AG, Asgard, etc): capable of killing targets in prime time within an hourish

So obviously each of the groups in R wanted the class to fit them.

The R- guilds thought of R as a way for everyone to experience the raid content without all of the normal insanity (that BDA is whining about in this very thread). Therefore they believed there should be some sort of way for guilds who weren't 24/7 zergs to join the rotation successfully, and proposed a number of mechanisms (dark hours etc).

The R+ guilds thought of R as a training ground for C. They wanted to practice the encounters without chain failing vs TMO/IB and then move up to C, so they were against a rotation in the first place. Oh wait, that's not what happened at all. The R+ guilds just wanted maximum free pixels.

Basically the problem with the R/C system was that Rogean just assumed that successful R guilds would move to C so they could do the C content, but due to the lockout system it was impossible for a successful R guild to get enough Trak teeth to compete in VP (Trakanon being one of the toughest encounters to get right, so the FFA ones were very hard), so there was no carrot to go against IB/TMO (1/9 Trakanons = 3 teeth per month, so 1-2 years to get a reasonable number of keys).

[Gorillas]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically at the time the R/C system was implemented, there were three classes of guilds:

• C (TMO/IB): capable killing targets 24/7 within 5 minutes
• R+ (Taken, BDA, Divinity): capable of killing targets 24/7 within an hourish
• R- (A-Team, Europa, AG, Asgard, etc): capable of killing targets in prime time within an hourish

So obviously each of the groups in R wanted the class to fit them.

The R- guilds thought of R as a way for everyone to experience the raid content without all of the normal insanity (that BDA is whining about in this very thread). Therefore they believed there should be some sort of way for guilds who weren't 24/7 zergs to join the rotation successfully, and proposed a number of mechanisms (dark hours etc).

The R+ guilds thought of R as a training ground for C. They wanted to practice the encounters without chain failing vs TMO/IB and then move up to C, so they were against a rotation in the first place. Oh wait, that's not what happened at all. The R+ guilds just wanted maximum free pixels.

Basically the problem with the R/C system was that Rogean just assumed that successful R guilds would move to C so they could do the C content, but due to the lockout system it was impossible for a successful R guild to get enough Trak teeth to compete in VP (Trakanon being one of the toughest encounters to get right, so the FFA ones were very hard), so there was no carrot to go against IB/TMO (1/9 Trakanons = 3 teeth per month, so 1-2 years to get a reasonable number of keys).

Nobody cares about your nerd history lesson

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

25 x 18 = ouch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzxVyO6cpos

[xexbis0]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically at the time the R/C system was implemented, there were three classes of guilds:

• C (TMO/IB): capable killing targets 24/7 within 5 minutes
• R+ (Taken, BDA, Divinity): capable of killing targets 24/7 within an hourish
• R- (A-Team, Europa, AG, Asgard, etc): capable of killing targets in prime time within an hourish

So obviously each of the groups in R wanted the class to fit them.

The R- guilds thought of R as a way for everyone to experience the raid content without all of the normal insanity (that BDA is whining about in this very thread). Therefore they believed there should be some sort of way for guilds who weren't 24/7 zergs to join the rotation successfully, and proposed a number of mechanisms (dark hours etc).

The R+ guilds thought of R as a training ground for C. They wanted to practice the encounters without chain failing vs TMO/IB and then move up to C, so they were against a rotation in the first place. Oh wait, that's not what happened at all. The R+ guilds just wanted maximum free pixels.

Basically the problem with the R/C system was that Rogean just assumed that successful R guilds would move to C so they could do the C content, but due to the lockout system it was impossible for a successful R guild to get enough Trak teeth to compete in VP (Trakanon being one of the toughest encounters to get right, so the FFA ones were very hard), so there was no carrot to go against IB/TMO (1/9 Trakanons = 3 teeth per month, so 1-2 years to get a reasonable number of keys).

I'm with you. I think R+ and R- were so far apart that even the middle ground for each seemed unrealistic, and if you take an A-Z scale, neither wanted to start at point C or X to get things moving in a tenable manner. My self introspection comment was that R+ really waited a very long time and put in effort to make it work and very, very little was done to meet in that middle ground in talks. Over a year is pretty damn patient to me. You've seen Taken up close and personal in being in Awakened. They had resources. They had players. You've been in R- in A-Team.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around with all R guilds, and they're still paying the price into Velious for not figuring it out. If the rotation had still existed, I have a hard time believing when things turned into the absurd shitshow we have now that the rotation wouldn't have been reinstated in some form or another.

Taken and Asgard are dead. BDA is gone. CSG and Anonymity are fighting for whatever scraps they can get, somehow losing ground with Awakened now monopolizing golems and VS lately.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Juevento [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's called a volume discount buddy.

Oh, ok. 25 x 17.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The R+ guilds thought of R as a training ground for C. They wanted to practice the encounters without chain failing vs TMO/IB and then move up to C, so they were against a rotation in the first place. Oh wait, that's not what happened at all. The R+ guilds just wanted maximum free pixels.

Basically the problem with the R/C system was that Rogean just assumed that successful R guilds would move to C so they could do the C content, but due to the lockout system it was impossible for a successful R guild to get enough Trak teeth to compete in VP (Trakanon being one of the toughest encounters to get right, so the FFA ones were very hard), so there was no carrot to go against IB/TMO (1/9 Trakanons = 3 teeth per month, so 1-2 years to get a reasonable number of keys).

So which is it? Free pixels or flawed system? Way contradict yourself.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The R- guilds thought of R as a way for everyone to experience the raid content without all of the normal insanity (that BDA is whining about in this very thread). Therefore they believed there should be some sort of way for guilds who weren't 24/7 zergs to join the rotation successfully, and proposed a number of mechanisms (dark hours etc).

If that's what R- really thought, they wouldn't have had issue sharing a raid slot with other like-minded guilds to down content they couldn't do on their own normally.

The R+ guilds thought of R as a training ground for C. They wanted to practice the encounters without chain failing vs TMO/IB and then move up to C, so they were against a rotation in the first place. Oh wait, that's not what happened at all. The R+ guilds just wanted maximum free pixels.

Except for the part where the rotation was R+'s idea in the first place and wouldn't have happened at all if they weren't on board with it from the start.

Basically the problem with the R/C system was that Rogean just assumed that successful R guilds would move to C so they could do the C content, but due to the lockout system it was impossible for a successful R guild to get enough Trak teeth to compete in VP (Trakanon being one of the toughest encounters to get right, so the FFA ones were very hard), so there was no carrot to go against IB/TMO (1/9 Trakanons = 3 teeth per month, so 1-2 years to get a reasonable number of keys).

3 Trak teeth a month is a pretty big bottle neck for sure.

[jcr4990]

Originally Posted by xexbis0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think there's plenty of blame to go around with all R guilds

NO ITS ALL BDA'S FAULT

Something something welfare pixels and cat gifs

[zanderklocke]

The problem with EverQuest raid mobs is that they are so vary so much in difficulty, that it's hard to compare them across the board. If I ally to kill Gorenaire, do I really need to for mobs like Maestro that are trivial for one group? However, of course if you're not allying for Gorenaire, you want those that are allying for Gorenaire to ally for every mob, including mobs like Maestro, even if they don't need to.

That difference in thought between R+ and R- (whatever you want to call them) was the crux of why the rotation didn't and wouldn't ever last indefinitely.

BDA's tiered system was a pretty good idea overall once it was in its final form. The first form was pretty laughable; I'm sure many people in BDA probably thought so too. Obviously, it was to stir the pot and create a sense of urgency. However, people on all sides in Class R just stopped giving a shit and didn't want to compromise on either side. I was supposed to represent A-Team on the FAP forums, and everyone was really terrible to each other there, saying things they definitely probably wouldn't on the public P99 forums. Besides, neither side would ever be able to find perfect middle ground in the ally for one, ally for all debate.

[Nirgon]

rotation or quit


they quit


any other hot threads on the horizon?