Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[Baler]

DeathsSilkyMist loves ogre, let the person be. They're clearly never going to give an inch towards the truth. If ogre works for them, that's all that matters to them.

Troll is better than Ogre. Go back multiple pages and read through this thread. I've provided numerous examples why this is the case.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DeathsSilkyMist loves ogre, let the person be. They're clearly never going to give an inch towards the truth. If ogre works for them, that's all that matters to them.

Troll is better than Ogre. Go back multiple pages and read through this thread. I've provided numerous examples why this is the case.

I have shown the factual math, you can't escape it[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It takes 5 minutes for most Torpor Shamans to get from low HP and Mana to full HP and Mana. While they are Full HP/Mana, they aren't regenerating. 5 minutes of regeneration = 400 extra HP from Troll regeneration, which is 1/3rd of a Torpor. Saving 24 seconds at best isn't anything special on a class that can get back to full HP/Mana in between fights faster than any other class in the game. Even on 20 min Chardok timers, I have no problems with spawn timers. I am not sure what you are doing in-between spawns. You either keep killing monsters while timers rotate, or you wait. Both situations are handled perfectly fine without regeneration.

In an actual fight, if you are in control of the situation, neither regeneration or FSI will matter. It only matters when you are not in control of the fight. At that point, you are looking at minutes to live at best. That crunched time period makes regeneration not very useful.

In raids, it also isn't anything special. I have never had any problems doing Shaman things without Fungi Tunic, Troll Regen, Bear Form, and Regrowth. If having 40 less regeneration isn't a big deal, having 8 less regeneration also isn't a big deal.

[busted]

For your consideration:

Witness as a troll gets stunned here: https://youtu.be/dO2ls0zK47g?t=31

(Aside: yes yes this is a shadowknight. Thanks for letting me know)

This could have been a death with just 1 more interrupt.

This is where FSI is boss level.

[Gustoo]

Yep.

Fact is that not being physically stunned is about 10x more useful than any other minor racial difference. You feel it big time as a melee character who in melee range all the time, its a no brainer.

But otherwise guys should just roll barbarians thats just pure nostalgia level fun edition everquest right there.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by busted [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For your consideration:

Witness as a troll gets stunned here: https://youtu.be/dO2ls0zK47g?t=31

(Aside: yes yes this is a shadowknight. Thanks for letting me know)

This could have been a death with just 1 more interrupt.

This is where FSI is boss level.

*spoiler* he didn't actually die.


And he certainly is not going to get stunned again before FD attempt because bash/kick has like a 7 second cooldown.

You could also post an ogre being hit/killed and claim that if he was a troll with higher agility he wouldn't have gotten hit. In fact we can extend this hypothetical absurdity by saying a troll could theoretically never get hit due to higher agility.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

*spoiler* he didn't actually die.


And he certainly is not going to get stunned again before FD attempt because bash/kick has like a 7 second cooldown.

You could also post an ogre being hit/killed and claim that if he was a troll with higher agility he wouldn't have gotten hit. In fact we can extend this hypothetical absurdity by saying a troll could theoretically never get hit due to higher agility.

This doesn't make any sense. Staying on Topic, we are talking about Shamans, who can max all of their melee stats self buffed, including Agility. Claiming starting stats matter at all on a Shaman is kind of silly.

I will show the math again.

Once you get Torpor, all racial bonuses become situational. It takes 5 minutes at most for a Shaman to regain full HP and Mana from Torpor/Cannibalize 4. 5 minutes of standing Regeneration on a Troll = 400 HP. This is 1/3rd of a Torpor. Out of combat, you save 24 seconds at best on the less than 5 minutes it takes to get back to full HP and Mana. You regenerate out of combat very little as a Torpor Shaman due to how fast you can gain your resources back.

A hard 15 minute fight such as West Waste Dragons:

1. 1200 HP total from Troll Regeneration, standing. This is assuming you never hit 100% from Torpor. This is 1 Torpor worth of HP. You will be saving 24 seconds and 200 mana at absolute best in this fight by being a Troll.

2. You are mitigating 80 damage per minute on a mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit.

3. Frontal Stun Immunity will allow you to land spells that would otherwise be interrupted. If you get bashed while casting your first Slow, you are looking at an additional 5-10 seconds of being hit on an unslowed mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit. That can easily amount to over 1200 damage if the mob gets lucky on hits. In the same 5-10 seconds, you would get 16 HP from regeneration at best.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This doesn't make any sense. Staying on Topic, we are talking about Shamans, who can max all of their melee stats self buffed, including Agility. Claiming starting stats matter at all on a Shaman is kind of silly.

I will show the math again.

Once you get Torpor, all racial bonuses become situational. It takes 5 minutes at most for a Shaman to regain full HP and Mana from Torpor/Cannibalize 4. 5 minutes of standing Regeneration on a Troll = 400 HP. This is 1/3rd of a Torpor. Out of combat, you save 24 seconds at best on the less than 5 minutes it takes to get back to full HP and Mana. You regenerate out of combat very little as a Torpor Shaman due to how fast you can gain your resources back.

A hard 15 minute fight such as West Waste Dragons:

1. 1200 HP total from Troll Regeneration, standing. This is assuming you never hit 100% from Torpor. This is 1 Torpor worth of HP. You will be saving 24 seconds and 200 mana at absolute best in this fight by being a Troll.

2. You are mitigating 80 damage per minute on a mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit.

3. Frontal Stun Immunity will allow you to land spells that would otherwise be interrupted. If you get bashed while casting your first Slow, you are looking at an additional 5-10 seconds of being hit on an unslowed mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit. That can easily amount to over 1200 damage if the mob gets lucky on hits. In the same 5-10 seconds, you would get 16 HP from regeneration at best.

it doesn't allow you to land jack shit on the mob. You have no idea if any given spell is going to get resisted or not, so simply getting the spell off isn't the same thing as landing a spell. In fact:

Non-ogre starts casting slow, gets stunned, this spell would have been resisted even if cast

We place an Ogre in same position who gets interrupted anyway.

We place a a different Ogre in same position but slow is resisted this time.

The non-ogre could have theoretically saved 250 mana and may in fact land the next slow spell before the ogre can, saving even more hp/mana because the stun duration could have been shorter than the completed cast time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it doesn't allow you to land jack shit on the mob. You have no idea if any given spell is going to get resisted or not, so simply getting the spell off isn't the same thing as landing a spell. In fact this scenario is entirely possible:

Non-ogre starts casting slow, gets stunned, this spell would have been resisted even if cast
We place an Ogre in same position who gets interrupted anyway.
We place a a different Ogre in same position but slow is resisted..

The non-ogre could have theoretically saved 250 mana and may in fact land the next slow spell even before the ogre saving even more hp/mana because the stun duration could have been shorter than the completed cast time.

I never claimed the spell couldn't be resisted. No racial helps with that. That is why you normally want to cast Malo on the mob first[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Being able to get the spell off AND not getting stunned means you can cast the second slow a few seconds faster than a Troll. You know the spell is resisted sooner, and you don't have to wait to become unstunned before you start casting again. So even in your hypothetical, Ogre is superior.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never claimed the spell couldn't be resisted. No racial helps with that. That is why you normally want to cast Malo on the mob first[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Being able to get the spell off AND not getting stunned means you can cast the second slow a few seconds faster than a Troll. You know the spell is resisted sooner, and you don't have to wait to become unstunned before you start casting again. So even in your hypothetical, Ogre is superior.

Stun from bashes only lasts about 1.5 seconds. The full cast time on tugurs is 3 seconds. The non-ogre didn't cast a first slow so they don't have to eat the cast time or mana loss. it's really not complicated stuff here. You want play this game of hypothetical but only when they hypothetically advantage your argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stun from bashes only lasts about 1.5 seconds. The full cast time on tugurs is 3 seconds. The non-ogre didn't cast a first slow so they don't have to eat the cast time or mana loss. it's really not complicated stuff here. You want play this game of hypothetical but only when they hypothetically advantage your argument.

I know it isn't complicated. I have a 60 Torpor Shaman. I am not sure why you are trying to make a super convoluted hypothetical to try and show how Trolls would "save 250 mana". A resistance check only happens when you land the spell, so you don't save any mana from being interrupted. The resistance check never happened. You would always cast Turgurs a second time right after you get interrupted in this situation. It isn't like you get bashed and realize you don't need to cast slow anymore.

Under your hypothetical where the first Slow is guaranteed to be resisted, the Troll gets the bad end of the deal. The Troll starts casting Turgurs the first time and gets interrupted. The second Turgurs gets resisted. The third Turgurs lands. He doesn't save any mana or time because he still had to cast the spell twice. But the Troll has to wait 1.5-4.5 seconds before he can cast the second Turgurs, depending on when the bash happens. This means the Troll will be attacked by an unslowed mob for up to 10 seconds before his third slow lands.

The Ogre's first Turgurs wouldn't get interrupted, only resisted. The second Turgurs would land. The Ogre has only been attacked unslowed for 6 seconds. Frontal Stun Immunity saved the Ogre up to 4 seconds of unslowed attacks in this example. It is very simple. The only time the Ogre loses out is when he gets interrupted, but he doesn't know it until the cast bar finishes. But Trolls have this exact same problem. Any bash that doesn't stun can still interrupt, and you don't know that happens until the cast bar finishes.