Self found shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just can't disagree more. I used both my regen tunic have played both a barb and a troll. It's night and day at end level the difference you get with and without regen, even with torpor.

If you're trying to min max or setup for hard fights, you're going in with every edge you can get, and 12 hp standing + 15 from tunic + another 15 from regrowth is a raw 420 hp extra per minute.

People are min maxing their characters for 20 stamina investments to get piddly higher HP pools, and here we are with troll or iksar, literally getting 420 extra raw hp per minute as long as we're not at max health.

Like I said, you can't beat the value.

You are contradicting yourself now[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] If racials aren't required to play a Shaman, then the Barbarian didn't need the +8 regen to win the fight. My Ogre Doesn't have a Fungi Tunic, Regrowth, or Troll Regen (+38 regen), and it doesn't affect my kill speeds or down time.

FSI is going to help more than +8 regen when +38 regen doesn't make a difference. I have done enough fights with both regen and without it to know it isn't making a significant difference. Vindi BP is better due to the higher resists/ac, which will help you more in tight situations than the slow HP tick.

This is with Torpor.

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are contradicting yourself now[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] If racials aren't required to play a Shaman, then the Barbarian didn't need the +8 regen to win the fight. My Ogre Doesn't have a Fungi Tunic, Regrowth, or Troll Regen (+38 regen), and it doesn't affect my kill speeds or down time.

FSI is going to help more than +8 regen when +38 regen doesn't make a difference. I have done enough fights with both regen and without it to know it isn't making a significant difference. Vindi BP is better due to the higher resists/ac, which will help you more in tight situations than the slow HP tick.

1. Not contradicting myself. I said if I'm going into a hard fight, I'm taking every edge I can get. I didn't say it was necessary, I said it was something I was going to benefit from.

You just committed a strawman fallacy.

2. Just doesn't help. Honestly, there's probably 10 times I can count on my fingers where I regreted not having FSI whereas when I didnt have the extra regen my playtime was miserable.


Not to mention downtime in this game is extensive.

If you want another metric, measure all the downtime you've spent because you had FSI and not regen and realize you're paying the game with seconds of your life, not doing something you enjoy, but having to wait to do it.

It's a dead horse at this point and why most green people roll trolls/iksars even despite having access to prenerf fungi staves and whatnot.

It's just superior to be a troll.

P.S. maybe consider that regen isn't affecting your downtime because you're not playing your shaman optimally in the first place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Not contradicting myself. I said if I'm going into a hard fight, I'm taking every edge I can get. I didn't say it was necessary, I said it was something I was going to benefit from.

You just committed a strawman fallacy.

2. Just doesn't help. Honestly, there's probably 10 times I can count on my fingers where I regreted not having FSI whereas when I didnt have the extra regen my playtime was miserable.


Not to mention downtime in this game is extensive.

If you want another metric, measure all the downtime you've spent because you had FSI and not regen and realize you're paying the game with seconds of your life, not doing something you enjoy, but having to wait to do it.

It's a dead horse at this point and why most green people roll trolls/iksars even despite having access to prenerf fungi staves and whatnot.

It's just superior to be a troll.

1. No strawman there. You know racials aren't required, and FSI also gives you an edge. It's an edge you can't get via an item. I am just letting you know that you have already admitted the Troll/Iksar regen isn't a big edge, because it isn't required.

2. It does help. The hardest part of a fight is the preslow phase. In one minute, FSI will help you more than a bit of HP.

3. Torpor Shamans have minimal downtime, less than basically any other class. In a 15 minute fight Troll/Iksar regen is saving you 30 seconds, or 1 Torpor. If you are doing 15 minute fights, you aren't saving enough time per hour to get more kills in. It's just basic math. If you are the type of person who is optimizing their life in 30 second intervals, just stop playing Everquest, that will save you more time[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You seem to be arguing about regen without Torpor. I never said regen isn't a huge benefit when you don't have Torpor. We are talking about Torpor Shamans, FSI vs. Troll/Iksar Regen.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Not contradicting myself. I said if I'm going into a hard fight, I'm taking every edge I can get. I didn't say it was necessary, I said it was something I was going to benefit from.
.

If you're "going into a hard fight" the only thing that will actually matter is FSI. Troll/Iksar regen just helps when leveling (pre torpor).

Sorry you don't got BiS ogre.

Hope this helps.

[Snaggles]

Imagine thinking racial perks and stats matter when you can slow something 75%, heal yourself forever and make mana with the extra healing.

Racial perks are a beneficial stretch for an end game SK let alone a shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imagine thinking racial perks and stats matter when you can slow something 75%, heal yourself forever and make mana with the extra healing.

Racial perks are a beneficial stretch for an end game SK let alone a shaman.

The key is you need to be able to land the first 75% slow[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] FSI helps with that. Is it necessary? Of course not. But it does help, and having FSI is better than not having it.

The discussion is about which racial is best as a Torpor Shaman, not is the racial critical for the success of a Torpor Shaman.

If you don't care about min/maxing, that's fine. But other people do, and there is no reason to discourage discussion. It's the same thing with fashion, there is no need to discourage fashion discussions for people who prefer that over min/maxing.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The key is you need to be able to land the first 75% slow[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] FSI helps with that. Is it necessary? Of course not. But it does help, and having FSI is better than not having it.

The discussion is about which racial is best as a Torpor Shaman, not is the racial critical for the success of a Torpor Shaman.

If you don't care about min/maxing, that's fine. But other people do, and there is no reason to discourage discussion. It's the same thing with fashion, there is no need to discourage fashion discussions for people who prefer that over min/maxing.

There's no data to support the survival rate of getting a slow off with FSI vs failing to get it off without FSI. So it's really just all speculation & personal preference, hence the endless shaman racial debate. Shaman's are wiping the majority of the time because the mob resisted slow, not due to being stunned. And at the point, one could argue the 80 extra hp in regen could be more useful then FSI in getting a slow off when you are spamming it to potentially survive another round to land it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Regen is something always working for you. FSI is for theoretically increasing your survival rate when attempting to slow a mob, which again we have no idea if this actually holds true compared to the survival rate of perhaps an extra 80-160hp from regen. People go to extreme lengths to obtain HP items like the spirit wracked cord so you really cannot discount the value of having 80-160hp in an emergency situation.

I think people forget how much more powerful FSI used to be before they fixed bash mechanics here, so they still hold onto that old mentality. At this point shaman racials are just weighing different conveniences against each other, nothing about determining real min/max power though.

[Toxigen]

Its simple.

Ogre for soloing big tough mobs.

Troll for newer players that want regen + jbb.

Iksar for ultimate (robe) fashion.

Barb for polar bear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's no data to support the survival rate of getting a slow off with FSI vs failing to get it off without FSI. So it's really just all speculation & personal preference, hence the endless shaman racial debate. Shaman's are wiping the majority of the time because the mob resisted slow, not due to being stunned. And at the point, one could argue the 80 extra hp in regen could be more useful then FSI in getting a slow off when you are spamming it to potentially survive another round to land it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Regen is something always working for you. FSI is for theoretically increasing your survival rate when attempting to slow a mob, which again we have no idea if this actually holds true compared to the survival rate of perhaps an extra 80-160hp from regen. People go to extreme lengths to obtain HP items like the spirit wracked cord so you really cannot discount the value of having 80-160hp in an emergency situation.

I think people forget how much more powerful FSI used to be before they fixed bash mechanics here, so they still hold onto that old mentality. At this point shaman racials are just weighing different conveniences against each other, nothing about determining real min/max power though.

I don't hold on to the old bash mechanics mentality, I just play Ogres and non-Ogres, so I can see the difference.

You can math out exactly how much HP you get from Regen, and it isn't enough to save you 99.9% of the time when dealing with mobs that can hit you for 200+ damage. If you have 160 HP or 80 HP, the 200 damage will still kill you.

I've played my Ogre (and non-Ogres) enough to be confident FSI is reducing spell interrupts. Is there any way to prove it 100%? Not without server code. But it's helping you more than the Regen during the pre-slow phase. Even if we can prove FSI isn't preventing a spell interrupt, being able to move after a stun is 1 second where you can start casting another spell, run away, etc. That is still more useful than 80 HP in the Pre-slow phase.

Again, there is a reason Torpor Shamans don't wear Fungi Tunics. The regen just isn't valuable when you already are regenerating at 300 HP/Tick. There is no fight I know of where 308HP/Tick will be enough to soak the damage. A fight where slow + Torpor isn't soaking the damage is generally doing much more damage than 300 HP per 6 seconds.

FSI is indeed the better min/max option, because it offers you something an item doesn't, and it is more useful in the pre-slow phase. That is the phase that matters the most. Once the mob is Slowed, you can finish the fight no problem.

[Snaggles]

In Chardok for some reason my graphics card sometimes freezes when I slow and malo quickly. Old computer, older zone. I don’t know why. 200 people in ToV not an issue but I’m cursed farming crappy spawns in Dok.

So I torp and stand with my face away from the npc. Still doesn’t matter. My slow is probably interrupted a quarter of the time and if so I just cast again. I’ve had slow resist multiple times before even with malo. If you aren’t able to survive a few combat rounds it’s probably not worth killing.

FSI is the biggest misnomer anyways. You aren’t immunity to stun, you are immune to bashes. Even if you could back into a wall this would make you only better in 1/3rd of the rare interrupt scenarios. I could make up a reason why it really matters, justify my pick in race, I just can’t remember a time when a bash kept a torp or slow from landing and I died.

I CAN remember a lot of times a non-snared alchemist walked off and trained me dead though. Is the snare neck a game changer? No, paying attention, stacking poison dots and having immobilize up would have fixed that.

It’s an easy class. Don’t overthink it. The main difference between what people kill and what they don’t kill is having the tools and the gag reflex to canni for half an hour. There is skill but let’s not conflate things…it’s not a tough class to play. It’s ok to like simple classes, I enjoy my paladin and mage too.

PS: a fungi is still like ft7. It’s free mana. It’s not the “best” choice but it’s not a bad one.