Game Mechanics: Sneak pulling

[Raev]

It's simply a theory and could easily be all wrong; I played a Magician on Live and quit in early Kunark so I don't have first hand experience with exactly how it worked. If you think Sneak mechanics haven't changed on Live it's easy enough to test: if my theory is correct there should be a short lag before NPCs assist on a sneak tag vs normal.

It seems to me that sneak must somehow affect that initial assist broadcast, albeit in an inconsistent manner that is highly dependent on level/geometry, or people would not be writing guides about how to sneak pull. Or maybe range/level is a factor; I don't think either are relevant on P99 except for greens sometimes not assisting. Reading the sneak guides it seems like level was a big factor.

Anyway, I'll be very curious to see what you come up with.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paul asserts that the aggro radius reduction caused by sneak should be less effective.

Small but important correction: the current implementation of sneak pulling is not an aggro radius reduction, it's a line of sight check. Meaning mobs gaining social aggro from a sneak pull is not contingent on their proximity to the mob you tag - it's 100% contingent on its line of sight toward you, and other mobs' line of sight toward you and the tagged mob. I'm suggesting that this is wrong and it should be changed to an aggro radius reduction.

So this is 100% about social aggro mechanics - you should be able to sneak pull a mob away from another mob that's looking directly at it, provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range.

Another theory is that it doesn't always work, but that would be much more difficult to prove.

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Small but important correction: the current implementation of sneak pulling is not an aggro radius reduction, it's a line of sight check. Meaning mobs gaining social aggro from a sneak pull is not contingent on their proximity to the mob you tag - it's 100% contingent on its line of sight toward you, and other mobs' line of sight toward the tagged mob. I'm suggesting that this is wrong and it should be changed to an aggro radius reduction.

It was both line of sight and aggro radius - this post might clear up a few things, from 2001 Safehouse:

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

There are some mobs that work on social aggro that don't need to "see" the player to be aggro'd by the other mob, most of the time sneak pulling won't help in these isolated instances. But there are LOTS of mobs people have told me are linked by social aggro and I couldn't sneak pull just one, yet I have *shrug*

Anyways, most mobs in norrath work on chain aggro - one runs by aggro'd, it aggro's another, BUT Sneak negates this in most instances.

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

The important thing is KEEP SNEAK ENGAGED until the mob is past anything else it can aggro on it's way to you. If you get hit so that sneak is off, or just take it off, then all normal chain aggro comes into effect.

By the way, because of this, sneak pulling casters is trickier. If they hit you with a nuke, sneak comes off, re-engage it quickly and you have a chance still to negate any chain aggro.

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Responses to some questions:

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karmors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

Using this, I have been able to keep the basement completely cleared, getting nothing but single pulls for 8 hours. It makes having the "necessary" cleric and chanter unecessary in an area that gives great xp - I've done the whole basement with nothing but 2 rogues and a druid.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you.

p.s. - Nimm is correct, I was simply referring to the pulling range of *most* weapons as far as pulling safely from the front. Of course there are some exceptions. Edited by: Zato at: 6/11/01 11:53:47 am

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/f...-sneak-pulling

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Ikon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It was both line of sight and aggro radius

Right - I'm positing that the line of sight check between other mobs and the mob you tag is completely wrong and never existed on live. There should be a line of sight check between you and the mob you tag, and between you and other mobs within social aggro proximity of the mob you tag.

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So this is 100% about social aggro mechanics - you should be able to sneak pull a mob away from another mob that's looking directly at it, provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range.

I slightly misspoke here too, I meant to write "provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob also has its back to you, and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range."

There's also some speculation about where exactly this aggro radius originates - it might not be a radius around the mob you tag, but instead a radius around the player, and as long as other mobs are outside of your sneak-aggro circle and fail a LoS check with you, they will not come with the mob you tag. This would also explain the conflicting testimonies during the same era - if it's an aggro radius that originates around you, and not the mob you tag, then there'd still be situations where you can sneak pull a mob that's directly on top of another mob, provided you're far away enough from both of them. This would also explain why people stressed the effectiveness of long-range weapons like bows when sneak pulling.

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right - I'm positing that the line of sight check between other mobs and the mob you tag is completely wrong and never existed on live. There should be a line of sight check between you and the mob you tag, and between you and other mobs within social aggro proximity of the mob you tag.



I slightly misspoke here too, I meant to write "provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob also has its back to you, and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range."

There's also some speculation about where exactly this aggro radius originates - it might not be a radius around the mob you tag, but instead a radius around the player, and as long as other mobs are outside of your sneak-aggro circle and fail a LoS check with you, they will not come with the mob you tag. This would also explain the conflicting testimonies during the same era - if it's an aggro radius that originates around you, and not the mob you tag, then there'd still be situations where you can sneak pull a mob that's directly on top of another mob, provided you're far away enough from both of them. This would also explain why people stressed the effectiveness of long-range weapons like bows when sneak pulling.

I think it almost certainly is around the player - which is why if you have sneak on and you pull the closest mob from extreme range with a bow, even if both are facing you, only the the one you shot wouldl come. If it was around the mob both would.

Probably something like this -

1. If mob is hit broadcast for assistance
2. IF nearby mobs are in range of aggroed mobs assist broadcast AND player is close enough to have their assist aggro radius overlapping non-aggroed mobs (always without sneak) AND mob can see player (always without sneak or obstruction) THEN assist broadcasting mob

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Ikon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think it almost certainly is around the player - which is why if you have sneak on and you pull the closest mob from extreme range with a bow, even if both are facing you, only the the one you shot wouldl come. If it was around the mob both would.

I would think the LoS check isn't constrained by anything - no matter how far away the mob is from you when you tag it, it still has to fail the LoS check with you, and the same would be true for any additional mobs. At least, I didn't read any posts suggesting that you can sneak pull mobs that are looking at you - it was pretty unanimous that the LoS check always applies. They can be facing each other, but they can't be facing you.

[Haynar]

On EQlive, I did some tests with sneak just now. I saw no reduction in aggro range, if sneak was up. If sneak was up, the indifferent mob I was behind, you could get right on top of them just about. And no aggro. They were indifferent.

If I body pulled, and they did not hit me. No adds. With the one aggro'd pulled right over the top of one i was behind.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would think the LoS check isn't constrained by anything - no matter how far away the mob is from you when you tag it, it still has to fail the LoS check with you, and the same would be true for any additional mobs. At least, I didn't read any posts suggesting that you can sneak pull mobs that are looking at you - it was pretty unanimous that the LoS check always applies. They can be facing each other, but they can't be facing you.

I stand corrected - from Monkly Business during late-Velious era:

Mob LoS also seems to have a maximum distance. If I whip a Shuriken of Quellious at a frog, I can usually solo pull it by running backwards as I throw to gain distance on the attack.

[Phantasm]

Well thats unclear. Was he sneaking? Was it simply reduced mob aggro radius from sneak or a mob LoS check?

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On EQlive, I did some tests with sneak just now. I saw no reduction in aggro range, if sneak was up. If sneak was up, the indifferent mob I was behind, you could get right on top of them just about. And no aggro. They were indifferent.

If I body pulled, and they did not hit me. No adds. With the one aggro'd pulled right over the top of one i was behind.

There wont be any reduction in aggro range from behind because of the LOS check. There's a definite reduction with sneak when a mob is in the arc though and you could always use that to sneak pull as long as any mobs you didnt want to pull were facing away or other mobs were outside of maximum sneak aggro range.