Bumamgar

[Starklen]

Ektar tried to impose some additional rules on the situation, and I promptly ignored him. I'm not against working within an additional set of player created rules, but no one handed me a rulebook when I formed WI and started raiding, and waiting till I'm running a raid under a 30 minute timer at 8:30 in the morning on a Monday to inform me of these "extra" rules and expecting me to honor them sight unseen and back down from a mob I've just spent 5 days camping is ludicrous. I'm sure I'll be involved in further discussions with the other raiding guilds on this server and come to an agreement, but springing it as a surprise mid-raid is pretty lame, imho. It was well known that WI was camping Naggy, and there was plenty of time for Ektar to send me a tell during that time to make sure I was aware of whatever additional rules beyond the official GM created rules I was going to be expected to know about and adhere to.

If two raid forces of 15 people remain in the zone of a raid npc with the intent of camping the spawn the first raid force with the 15 minimum will have rights to the first attempt provided they meet the roll call from the second raid force upon the actual spawn. A roll call will be made in shout by the raid leader of the second raid present with 15 people. The raid force who was there first is then REQUIRED to have at least 15 members reply in shout with “present” within 60 seconds. If the raid force that was there first fails to have 15 people reply within 60 seconds, the attempt will be awarded to the raid force who was there second. Once the 60 seconds has expired ,the second raid force will also have 60 seconds to shout that they are present in order to confirm claim. In order to maintain “being there first” during a camp, 15 members must remain in the zone. At any point of that number goes below 15, then first shot would change to the raid force who is present with 15. A roll call is only to be used if there is more than one raid force in a zone and then a raid mob spawns.

http://i30.tinypic.com/29kthdx.jpg

[Aadill]

Thanks, IB, for showing a bit of sportsmanship. Hopefully, we can all continue to participate with the raid rulesets effectively and competitively. There's been a few hiccups along the way and it seems to me Ektar made a good move in this instance. Grats on the Naggy kill, WI.

[Bumamgar]

Originally Posted by Starklen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please provide a reference for this and clarify if this is a GM rule or a player rule.

Thank you!

[Chicka]

Originally Posted by Bumamgar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please provide a reference for this and clarify if this is a GM rule or a player rule.

Thank you!

Dude you have been given the reference in the other thread, but please let me direct your attention to the RAID RULES sticky thread in the guild forum.

[Skope]

Just to clarify, i was there staring at the clock (my own clock) when Ektar called the initial roll call, i didn't timestamp it because IB was doing the call and not us. It took about 30+ seconds before the first WI member even realized what was going on and Soulquin i believe was the first to respond with a "present." After a bit the rest of WI began to catch on and responded accordingly, unfortunately it was after the 1 minute mark.

At first I couldn't believe that IB didn't hold them to the rule and actually had to scroll up to see what happened, and frankly I still don't understand it. Why in the world would you call a 30 minute timer on a guild that's failed a roll call?

Regardless, Bumamgar, you should know these rules like the back of your hand if you're looking to start raiding here. "I wasn't aware" isn't a valid excuse.

[Loke]

To my knowledge GMs agreed to uphold player rules. If a guild does not want to abide by the player rules, then other players should not have to abide by the player rules when dealing with that guild.

Either WI should abide by the roll call rule OR IB should not be required to recognize WI's claim as that too is a player rule. Can't have it both ways.

[Supreme]

Wow..thanks for...

Well thanks for trying to show some consideration that this was their FIRST raid on a major target and are NEW to the whole process.

[Bumamgar]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just to clarify, i was there staring at the clock (my own clock) when Ektar called the initial roll call, i didn't timestamp it because IB was doing the call and not us. It took about 30+ seconds before the first WI member even realized what was going on and Soulquin i believe was the first to respond with a "present." After a bit the rest of WI began to catch on and responded accordingly, unfortunately it was after the 1 minute mark.

At first I couldn't believe that IB didn't hold them to the rule and actually had to scroll up to see what happened, and frankly I still don't understand it. Why in the world would you call a 30 minute timer on a guild that's failed a roll call?

Regardless, Bumamgar, you should know these rules like the back of your hand if you're looking to start raiding here. "I wasn't aware" isn't a valid excuse.

Skope, you've had it in for me from the get go, so I don't really care what you think I "should know". No one sent me a link to the player rules when I declared I was forming WI, when I declared we were a raiding guild, or when I've commented elsewhere about raid rules on this server. It is my obligation to know and abide by the server rules as mandated by the GMs and I have fulfilled that obligation. If players want to setup their own rule systems, that's great, but you cannot assume new players will automatically know those rules, and as such, it becomes YOUR obligation to inform new players, otherwise there is no reason to expect them to abide by anything beyond the server rules.

By your own admission, WI had no clue what the fuck a "roll call" was since there is no mention of such things in the Raid System Rules posted by Nilbog. Those are the only rules I was aware of or had read.

http://project1999.org/forums/showth...ver+raid+rules

I am now aware of another set of rules. I will read them. I will decide if they are agreeable to me and my guild, and will act accordingly.

IB honored the server rules and I have no beef with them. By the player rules they could have chosen to steamroll us, but chose not to hold us to the player rules since it was clear we were unaware of them. I appreciate that considerably.

[Skope]

Problem is that these "player-made rules" are enforced with the hammer of GMs. If your guild declines to follow these "player-made rules" then you should expect every other guild on the server not to follow them when WI are in the same zone.

Furthermore, I HAVE had it out for you and judging from the way you've handled both situations I'm inclined to believe I was right all along. IB gave you a free pass here, take it accept it and move on. They could have very easily said "Naggy is ours now" but chose not to when they called that 30 minute timer. You got away with one, quit trying to defend yourself and your laziness in learning the rules and move on to the next one.

Stating that you'll contemplate on whether you'll agree with these rules is BS. A developer a head of a raiding guild is now contemplating on whether or not he wants to agree with the player-made an GM enforced raiding rules of the server... nice one dude. You're looking classier every minute

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Supreme [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wow..thanks for...

Well thanks for trying to show some consideration that this was their FIRST raid on a major target and are NEW to the whole process.

Oh yea, because it is someone's first try at something other people should just back off and let them have it?! I don't think anyone involved would want that.

WI kill the mob and they did it with pressure from IB - I'm sure they feel much better knowing they can compete and succeed. Props to them imo. I would like to see them work within the confines of player agreed upon rules - but that is an issue for the leadership of involved guilds to decide, not randoms on the rant board.