Physics and Punishment in games.

[stormlord]

No, this is not about gravity or Einstein or prisons or criminals.

Go here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/po...opic_id=181573

That's about one of the many things I could link from live.

Push is a kind of physics. Done right, you can work around it, most of the time. Done wrong, it can be annoying. It reminds me of adventuring in Velketor's Labyrinth on the (sometimes icy) twisting turns which rise far above the entrance from outside. Done right, you can navigate it most of the time without falling down or getting lost. Done wrong, it can be a source of annoyance, especially for new players.

Generally, most of these things require you to be AT YOUR KEYBOARD. You have to pay attention. It can be very twitch-like and/or reliant on your knowledge as a player. These things are indifferent in how they punish. They don't care if you're a veteran or a noob. They will kill you regardless.

Some players feel these things are old fashioned and don't belong in modern games. Most modern games don't punish you unnecessarily. They have in-game maps and radars (for tracking nearby creatures) and creatures that don't aggro unless attacked and creatures that won't assist their friends and cliffs that you cannot fall off and fire that doesn't burn you. Broadly, they attempt to avoid punishing players for something they might not know. They (mostly) resort to punishment only after generous amounts of forewarning.

I like choice-oriented gameplay and worlds with physics. I like to be punished for things I am unaware of. It gives me a goal and makes me feel like the world is worth conquering. I hate to enter a world that's too touchy feely. I like it when I have to pay attention. What I hate most of all is when I feel I have no control. A game that cannot bite me doesn't give me any feeling of reward even if it gives me the ability to control everything.

I've made a couple posts already relating to this. Like htis for example:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=51520

[Daldaen]

Lol....

Play on live. Then talk to me about push.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol....

Play on live. Then talk to me about push.

I did play on live, all the way up to 2010. I even participated in SOF/SOD raids. I understand how bad push is during those instances. I recall us using corners to keep a mob in position. And there were those raids where the leader would say "No pets!" That's why I stated that in the current game -as is- I think that push is broke.

Don't mistake me for something I'm not. I'm not a punishment fanatic.

I am, however, fanatical about wanting a game that doesn't put me to sleep. I think the most important thing, though, is to give players TIME to correct their mistakes. EQ was never good at that.

[Humerox]

Here's an interesting article covering some of that.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Humerox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's an interesting article covering some of that.

Nice link and on target.

Basically, the ideas that players have of physics and punishment will change over time. So what might work in one "generation" won't work in the next. It continually reshapes itself into something new.

I still think there's a niche for realism in RPGs. But it'll never be mainstream.

Sometimes I think it's my programming background that makes me interested in realism. I think my personality fits an engineer more than anything else. I'm always wondernig how things work. When I see a game that's too "abstracted" I get bored with it because it's not nearly as interesting as a simulation might be.

I mean, when you boil down most RPGs, it could be just HP and DAMAGE and LEVEL. You don't need much more than that because these sum it up. That's heavily abstracted. In fact, you could just have a LEVEL and nothing else. So a level 2 would beat a level 1 dependent on the formula that's used.

How about:
Sword A (highly abstracted) - Damage: 2
Sword A (less abstracted) - Damage: 2, Type: Slashing, Weight: 4
Sword A (much less abstracted) - Damage: 2, Type: Slashing, Weight: 4, Quality: Poor, Material: Demium, Magical Properties: None, Length: Short

A highly detailed RPG can take dozens of properties and combine them in different ways in different skills. A highly abstracted game greatly reduces these things to make it more understandable and fluid.

If you abstract a game enough then there's nothing left to keep anyone interested, imho. So, another words, you cannot abstract forever. There's a limit. It's about finding hte right balance.

This all reminds me of the battle between realism and impressionism in art history.

[Autotune]

is push leaving us? what is the point of this thread? what the fuck is going on here? I need answers.

[Mcbard]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

is push leaving us? what is the point of this thread? what the fuck is going on here? I need answers.

Read.

I personally like push. I think without it, certain fights could turn on auto attack, and come back minutes later to find out whether certain things died or lived. Push gives you something to manage, and keeps you attentive for the encounters. Since we're still stuck with the 32k hp cap it's not as big of a deal now as it will be later (AoW) since most fights end so quickly, but I like having to coordinate mob locations with push. It adds a new element to an already terribly simple, and archaic combat system that involves turning on auto attack, letting the RNG do it's job, clicking the 1/2 melee skills you have and then having the monster fall over and give you loot. It's also nice on certain fights where it completely benefits you such as Vox, where when she begins trying to CH herself you can move her in order to interrupt it.

tl;dr (for stealin)
1. I think EQ combat is entirely too simple, and push is a nice mechanic
2. Push is a 2 way street, and it sometimes benefits people who use it well

Edit: As for the argument about punishment... well.. I'm all for it. If I didn't like punishment in my games, the rewards would feel that much worse, and I probably wouldn't be playing a 13 year old emulated MMO and my Nintendo all the time. I would buy an X-box 360 and go get yelled at by 17 year old virgins playing Call of Duty or something.

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by Mcbard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's also nice on certain fights where it completely benefits you such as Vox, where when she begins trying to CH herself you can move her in order to interrupt it.

I was wondering if my memory of push stopping CH's was wrong...I seem to remember push as being critical to stopping CH's in Kael, and one of my zam posts from long ago (Madmmiller) seems to corroborate that:

http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/se...01365961938183

So I like push. I think it actually had a function in the game.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Mcbard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Read.

I personally like push. I think without it, certain fights could turn on auto attack, and come back minutes later to find out whether certain things died or lived. Push gives you something to manage, and keeps you attentive for the encounters. Since we're still stuck with the 32k hp cap it's not as big of a deal now as it will be later (AoW) since most fights end so quickly, but I like having to coordinate mob locations with push. It adds a new element to an already terribly simple, and archaic combat system that involves turning on auto attack, letting the RNG do it's job, clicking the 1/2 melee skills you have and then having the monster fall over and give you loot. It's also nice on certain fights where it completely benefits you such as Vox, where when she begins trying to CH herself you can move her in order to interrupt it.

tl;dr (for stealin)
1. I think EQ combat is entirely too simple, and push is a nice mechanic
2. Push is a 2 way street, and it sometimes benefits people who use it well

Edit: As for the argument about punishment... well.. I'm all for it. If I didn't like punishment in my games, the rewards would feel that much worse, and I probably wouldn't be playing a 13 year old emulated MMO and my Nintendo all the time. I would buy an X-box 360 and go get yelled at by 17 year old virgins playing Call of Duty or something.

i figured this had nothing to do with our server and that it was about a live server. lame.

[Lucidus]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was wondering if my memory of push stopping CH's was wrong...I seem to remember push as being critical to stopping CH's in Kael.

Your memory is serving you well. It was the most practical of two options, the other being mana sieve.