Someone Translate this wall of text from Omni

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Make up your mind: is this about being able to kill dragons, or is this about playing the non-EQ "competition" game of staring at walls and doing monotonous actions repeatedly for extended periods of time?

When you're arguing against rotations you like to pretend the "competition" game is all that matters. But when you're defending the 90% that don't compete, suddenly all that matters is the organizational effort of killing dragons.

It's ok, you can be swayed by my oh-so-persuasive arguments [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can admit that you agree, that EverQuest, that game we all love so much, is about killing dragons, and is not about "competing" in inane ways! Come to the dark light side Champion!

What?

[destrozi]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

300 people waiting at the Fear portal or the WL zone line in Kael or the zone in of ToV for a boss to pop/get pulled isn't really an accurate snapshot at all. At any given time there were one or two guilds on many servers that could even imagine trying that stuff, and the rest got their hands on it after the bigger guilds had moved on to the new expansion.

For severs with huge populations, there tended to be player agreement rotations so each uber guild got something instead of fighting and wiping and possibly getting nothing. So none of this is EXACTLY a snapshot of anything that happened in these zones on live during Velious.

Then again back then there was 24/7 volunteer guide service plus a paid GM for each server who would come make raid leaders roll for dragon kill rights or just despawn the damn thing if people were going full on neckbeard. Which brings us back again to the actual point of the Omni post, if we don't have sufficient staff here to enforce raid rules, shouldn't the rules be modified or in the extreme scenario just done away with?

Omni is not an uber guild though. They are trying to argue the rules from the sideline. The current raid competition between AM / Core / AG is quite cordial these days.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by destrozi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How is the existence of later expansions / games at all relevant on a Velious time locked server?

We are in a Groundhog Day type of scenario where we retain knowledge but relive the same experiences. Later games are irrelevant, later expansions are irrelevant. People come here to experience that time locked nostalgia. That is the whole point of the server.

Loot is distributed on this server to the people that put in the most effort to acquire that loot -- EXACTLY like the snapshot of live this server replicates from 2001.

It creates conditions that aren't classic, nullifying any argument that the endgame raid scene here is classic.

That's without even mentioning 6? years of Kunark on P99, which would make a "snapshot of 2001" impossible to recreate here. And if you're talking about living in the Velious era for 4+ years or whatever it is, you can't liken anything to "a snapshot".

Classic Velious content was something guilds consumed and then moved on from, creating a vacuum for less hardcore guilds to come up and consume. And so on.

I know it's the entire basis of your agrument, but it was a flow, not a snapshot. Expanison. Flush. Expansion. Flush. P99 removed the flusher from the toilet of content and we've clogged it all up, and we're neck-deep in turds.

Unless you're advocating guilds who have been farming NTOV for 12 months get characters with NTOV loot on them deleted to simulate moving on to bleeding edge Luclin content as an artificial flush to get the flow moving again.

On Live, I didn't experience NTOV content until Luclin. That's what it took for the Xegony uber guilds to stop monopolizing the content before my guild could consume that content. That flow that is inherently classic is artificially prohibited from taking place here, so there can be no comparison.

[Hotel]

Loramin, your lack of humility regarding this matter is appalling.

I'll reiterate a point that I think is plain as day the more you post these rants ('debates'): YOU ARE NOT AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Hotel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loramin, your lack of humility regarding this matter is appalling.

I'll reiterate a point that I think is plain as day the more you post these rants ('debates'): YOU ARE NOT AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE

Great defense of the current raid system. Really shows your own intelligence.

[arsenalpow]

Complaining about how things are run on this server has literally never worked. Ever. There’s a reason why guilds leave en masse. This isn’t a new phenomenon.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What?

I thought I was clear, but I'll try again. When you (and not just you, many in this thread) are in "defend P99 competition" mode you're all about how "competition" is what's important, and it doesn't even matter about organizing people to kill dragons. "We've been doing this for year, anyone can kill dragons, that's the easy part, the hard part is competing!" "The pixels themselves don't even matter, it's all about the exclusivity!" That, more or less, is the argument.

But then when someone points out that hey, the vast majority of your guild doesn't "compete", well then suddenly what matters is the work of assembling all those people, because it's hard, and getting them to kill a dragon, because it's hard, and allocating loot fairly, because it's hard. As soon as anyone points out most of the guild doesn't "earn" their loot through competition, well then all those people do earn it, by playing EverQuest, and never mind that they don't compete.

You can't have it both ways. Either competition makes you deserve loot, and there's a hole in your argument that most of the guild getting the loot doesn't actually deserve it, or killing the dragon makes you deserve loot, in which case the "competition" part isn't actually what we're all here to play.

But you can't have it both ways: you can't claim top-end guilds deserve dragons and no one else does because they compete, when most of them don't actually compete.

[destrozi]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It creates conditions that aren't classic, nullifying any argument that the endgame raid scene here is classic.

That's without even mentioning 6? years of Kunark on P99, which would make a "snapshot of 2001" impossible to recreate here. And if you're talking about living in the Velious era for 4+ years or whatever it is, you can't liken anything to "a snapshot".

Classic Velious content was something guilds consumed and then moved on from, creating a vacuum for less hardcore guilds to come up and consume. And so on.

I know it's the entire basis of your agrument, but it was a flow, not a snapshot. Expanison. Flush. Expansion. Flush. P99 removed the flusher from the toilet of content and we've clogged it all up, and we're neck-deep in turds.

Unless you're advocating guilds who have been farming NTOV for 12 months get characters with NTOV loot on them deleted to simulate moving on to bleeding edge Luclin content as an artificial flush to get the flow moving again.

On Live, I didn't experience NTOV content until Luclin. That's what it took for the Xegony uber guilds to stop monopolizing the content before my guild could consume that content. That flow that is inherently classic is artificially prohibited from taking place here, so there can be no comparison.

You are misunderstanding me. The GMs have created a snapshot of how the server itself was, with added raid rules that level the play field a bit. I'm not talking about how geared certain people are or how many people might be online at any given time. The snapshot is the sandbox given to players to play in.

The server as a whole is nothing like 2001 because of all the knowledge and gear gained in the lifetime of the server. But that's going to happen. The game has hard forked from its predecessor. This is inevitable. Trying to control the divergence is impossible.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Hotel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loramin, your lack of humility regarding this matter is appalling.

As opposed to the exemplary humility demonstrated by those on the other side of this discussion:

Originally Posted by Mead [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys want free pixels, and hopefully are never going to get them. Be happy with the mom and pop guild targets you can acquire or put in more work.

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All I hear is yadda yadda I'm gonna pretend it's for the greater good so I can get my freebie pixels. For the children! Sorry you don't get raid.

Yes, a real class act in humility for sure.

Don't worry, unless you've designated the bronze armor I collect in Mistmoore to gift to new players leveling up in Gfay as your pixels too, you don't have to worry about me taking any of your precious pixels. Both guilds I have been a part of no longer exist on this server due to the toxic raid scene.

Have no concern. I know my place on the loot/raid totem pole that has been assigned to me by the neckbeard society here based on my work-life balance. And just in case I forgot, I know I can always come here to have it rubbed in my face. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I thought I was clear, but I'll try again. When you (and not just you, many in this thread) are in "defend P99 competition" mode you're all about how "competition" is what's important, and it doesn't even matter about organizing people to kill dragons. "We've been doing this for year, anyone can kill dragons, that's the easy part, the hard part is competing!" "The pixels themselves don't even matter, it's all about the exclusivity!" That, more or less, is the argument.

But then when someone points out that hey, the vast majority of your guild doesn't "compete", well then suddenly what matters is the work of assembling all those people, because it's hard, and getting them to kill a dragon, because it's hard, and allocating loot fairly, because it's hard. As soon as anyone points out most of the guild doesn't "earn" their loot through competition, well then all those people do earn it, by playing EverQuest, and never mind that they don't compete.

You can't have it both ways. Either competition makes you deserve loot, and there's a hole in your argument that most of the guild getting the loot doesn't actually deserve it, or killing the dragon makes you deserve loot, in which case the "competition" part isn't actually what we're all here to play.

But you can't have it both ways: you can't claim top-end guilds deserve dragons and no one else does because they compete, when most of them don't actually compete.

This is getting extremely convoluted and circuitous. I never said any of those things, at this point you're just arguing against what you think the mentality of most raiders on the server is. Not what I've actually said in this or other threads. I've ONLY pointed out the time investment by leadership and key members, I've never claimed that entire guilds work just as hard as they do. As a matter of fact I literally called them cogs in the loot machine.

A guild is a team, and the only people who should be concerned about team members not pulling their weight are the people in charge of and on that team. If the leadership and key members are willing to give them loot for showing up and doing whatever it is they need them to do, there's nothing illegitimate about that player getting loot. These players don't negate the time put in by the leadership or key member.

The end result of the teams efforts as a whole are what matter, not whether or not an outsider has determined that x amount of the players didn't work hard enough and thus aren't meeting the criteria for "competing" or "deserving" loot.