Argent Protector vs. Reaver, 50 Paladin

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Knights are the best aggro tanks in the game. From a tanking aspect the Natures Defender checks all the right boxes. Throw in the cool looks and ease of acquiring and there is no way I’d waste time on the epic to trade bash for the AC. Plus as Troxx mentioned slow swings make for easy casting without damage loss.

Funny how you say "AC vs Bash" in regards to Pally Epic vs ND when in reality, there's so much more than that.

It's more like... 30 AC vs:

-100x better fashion - ND is basically the gold version of the Centi longsword - lame
-Not limited to the 2 worst races for Pally fashion - HIE(lol) & HEF(meh)
- Sacrificing 10 dex for 10 extra str, 10 sta, 5 extra wis, 45 extra hp, 5 extra mana, 10 MR/FR/CR (Who cares about 5 less PR/DR?)
- Bash with a 2H - considering this is the only way Pallies can bash with a 2h, and considering some people roll large races because of the ability to 2H bash, this is a pretty big deal.
- Better ratio which Pallies need all the help they can get

Pally epic is not hard, it's annoying. But the drops are consistent. It's not hard to source the Naggy/Vox books, and the rest of the spawns you can park toons there to check spawns and kill with ease when they do pop assuming you have a few friends.

What's the rush to 60? Enjoy the journey. Pally epic was one of the most rewarding quests I've ever done in this game. Get it and enjoy all it has to offer, including looking better than most around in a game where fashion is arguably the most important. So those pallies out there debating between epic and an ND race, well you've already chosen a rare class. Go ahead and obtain a rare fiery sword while you're at it.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's more like... 30 AC vs:

-100x better fashion - ND is basically the gold version of the Centi longsword - lame
-Not limited to the 2 worst races for Pally fashion - HIE(lol) & HEF(meh)
- Sacrificing 10 dex for 10 extra str, 10 sta, 5 extra wis, 45 extra hp, 5 extra mana, 10 MR/FR/CR (Who cares about 5 less PR/DR?)
- Bash with a 2H - considering this is the only way Pallies can bash with a 2h, and considering some people roll large races because of the ability to 2H bash, this is a pretty big deal.
- Better ratio which Pallies need all the help they can get.

-subjective, not objective
-subjective, not objective
-objective observation, subjective opinion on whether the loss is worth it or not. I don’t mind the stat difference. I’d give up those stats for 30ac 10 str (don’t need it) 10 stamina and 45 mana for 30ac. I do wish the 30 resists on ND were applied to others.
-objective truth. If I need to bash a shield equip is never more than 2-3 clicks away.
-objective truth. The epic has 0.88 ratio. ND is 0.83 ratio. It’s there but not significant. With a 40 delay and 100% haste a person is more likely to miss out on swings vs slower delay.

I prefer ND in most all ways other than lack of 2h bash.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Funny how you say "AC vs Bash" in regards to Pally Epic vs ND when in reality, there's so much more than that.

It's more like... 30 AC vs:

-100x better fashion - ND is basically the gold version of the Centi longsword - lame
-Not limited to the 2 worst races for Pally fashion - HIE(lol) & HEF(meh)
- Sacrificing 10 dex for 10 extra str, 10 sta, 5 extra wis, 45 extra hp, 5 extra mana, 10 MR/FR/CR (Who cares about 5 less PR/DR?)
- Bash with a 2H - considering this is the only way Pallies can bash with a 2h, and considering some people roll large races because of the ability to 2H bash, this is a pretty big deal.
- Better ratio which Pallies need all the help they can get

Pally epic is not hard, it's annoying. But the drops are consistent. It's not hard to source the Naggy/Vox books, and the rest of the spawns you can park toons there to check spawns and kill with ease when they do pop assuming you have a few friends.

What's the rush to 60? Enjoy the journey. Pally epic was one of the most rewarding quests I've ever done in this game. Get it and enjoy all it has to offer, including looking better than most around in a game where fashion is arguably the most important. So those pallies out there debating between epic and an ND race, well you've already chosen a rare class. Go ahead and obtain a rare fiery sword while you're at it.

I'm glad you like it.

30 AC is still a metric ton of AC. It's 5 more AC than a SBS.
Very arguable on the fashion front
Very few people roll big races only for shield-less bash.
If you want ratio get a Narandi for the price of a book of scale or Reaver for half the cost and way less effort (plus they have some resale value if you want to liquidate.

IMHO, which is mostly what this comes down to, the ND or FD are both grind tank weapons. Nobody *should* be using them on raids unless for offtanking. For that reason like most the crap paladins have it's a fashion and fun piece.

The pally epic is probably one of the most optional epics in the game. I'm not saying it sucks; I'm saying it's far from a class-changer. It was the first one so they made it the most complicated (even if not "hard"). They should have made the stun like 6 seconds since the SK epic friggin heals you. It's not a bad weapon at all...just not worth the effort if you are an elf when your quasi-epic is easier to pick up than a couch from Ikea.

[Classicranger]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

45ac

I actually lose visible ac when equipping a shield. Shield ac is more potent but from parses I’ve run, hit for hit it’s comparable to wearing a 25 ac shield but end up taking a bit less damage mostly from fewer incoming ripostes.

Pair that with a strong ratio (not great mind you, but strong), 150dd stun proc with a -100 resist mod and nice stats it’s got it all. It looks cool as hell too.

Functional dmg output for now is on par with 27/29 hate blade and will be better after the last patch. It’s both frustrating and nice to have 2 setups that are so evenly matched. For me it’s sword/board when I need to bash casters and 2hander most other times for the mana saving aggro proc and the ability to land most any cast between swings with no loss to white dmg. It’s got that sweet spot delay for spell casts.

It’s good enough I won’t ever be actively working on paladin epic. I personally wouldn’t use any non-ToV or tunare 2hander over it. There are better ratios but let’s be real, we’re talking paladins who don’t put out a ton of dps. More damage from a low dps class is less important than the defensive perks from 45 extra worn ac. As silly as it sounds, it’s my highest worn ac item for now and still will be once I finish my thurg bp to finish the set for my alt.

Dang now I am fired up to go level my Paladin to 46 so I can get my ND...

[Troxx]

It's easy if you have a guild that can do hate, otherwise the MQ from hate should not cost much. The other mobs are cake easy just have to watch for them to be up (unicorn specifically)

[Ennewi]

It really comes down to personal preference. But that's a solid argument against the Fiery Defender, with its needed quest piece (Book of Scale) costing more than Narandi's Lance.

As stylish and iconic as Natures Defender looks, and as well as Narandi's Lance complements the class, the Fiery Defender still holds roleplay and fashionquest value, having the appearance of a controlled burn and being the ultimate equipped lightsource in Norrath. Though probably more of a status symbol now for BiS completionists, for humans and erudites back in classic the FD must have been a godsend, almost a night and day difference when wielding it in poorly-lit dungeons or meadows at dusk. (What happens in the meadow at dusk? Nothing. Everything.) Also, it's interesting that the fire never dies, even when its wielder has, with its light passively assisting them in locating corpse versus night blindness. So it's not just a decorative particle effect, but one that's situationally useful.

The proc on FD and ND are a nice addition but, for all of the work put into completing the epic, it seems unlikely that a more substantial effect would have drawn much outcry from other classes. A moderate self-heal (blue text: cauterize wound) proc would have set the epic apart from future raid drops, at least situationally, much in the way that Innoruuk's Curse is still swapped in by Shadow Knights during raids to counter AoE damage.

[Crede]

To all those ND fanboys, know you’re settling for an inferior weapon compared to epic.

I’d agree with snaggles though proc shoulda been better, but no more stuns. Shoulda been at Least 300 dmg, Compared to the sk epic. They did get the finally get the pally 2.0 right though, I believe it was the first weapon to break 100 base dmg. It looked like a weapon the white walkers woulda used in GOT.

[Legidias]

10% effort compared to getting epic for roughly 90% effectiveness

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

10% effort compared to getting epic for roughly 90% effectiveness

20 years ago our guild had a spare skull in the bank and the corrupted spawns were up in WL. I want to say the whole thing took half an hour.

Or you can sit in Everfrost for days and then try to rally people to run across West Karanas. Unless that is, you hand out Everfrost port potions for 400p each.

The merits of each sword can be debated all day long (I'd love either in a grind group). The ease of one over the other is a conversational non-starter.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or you can sit in Everfrost for days and then try to rally people to run across West Karanas. Unless that is, you hand out Everfrost port potions for 400p each.

Lol, you think that’s what it takes to get a mob like that?

No wonder you’re after a ND.