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Originally Posted by Juryiel
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Because you need the failure to learn the encounter. Without the failures you will never win. And saying you are not rewarded for failures is also a lie. If you are not failing you are not pushing yourself hard enough. The reward for trying hard things and failing, repeatedly, is typically the learning you need to do to move higher and get those phat loot rewards. The people who put in the time to learn are carrying those who don't, and should be rewarded for it.
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Knowledge is the reward. In life, people don't get punished for learning from someone else's mistakes, so why should they be punished for it here?
Maybe there should be some kind of compensation for initial investment, but you have to draw a line at some point once that has been recouped.
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Another interesting point is that Raev brought up and in the context of random drift due to high variability of /random. Although in the long term random processes can work, in the short term they can drift massively. Now imagine that interaction with censoring effects that cut out parts of the distribution, like when people leave guilds or quit EQ or, because they just happened to get all the stuff they need, they stop showing up as much. In other words, yes random is 'flat' in an ideal setting, but it's not systematically flat, and for short periods it can drift. DKP tries (though it also fails I'm sure) to create a distribution that is flat systematically, like each person gets (1 x unit of effort) in order, rather than 1 person gets 10, another person gets 3, another person gets 0, and then over time waiting for that to balance out to flat. Especially problematic when that person who got 10 stops showing up cuz they don't need anything, or maybe just because he got bored of EQ.
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I never said it was fair over a short term. You're talking to someone who has been playing this server off and on for over half a decade. I would argue most people who are raiding on a hobby server are in it for the long haul, so they will have good streaks and bad streaks, but it does even out. Further, it would promote more of a stick it out mentality than DKP has to offer. How much guild-hopping is there because people want their loot right now, but when they see what they're up against in terms of DKP, they look for greener pastures?
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But again, all these examples are just to say that random has a lot of issues too, and especially so in a system that has the structure of EQ, where people change guilds or leave EQ, loot quality changes with time, some people can get their gear all in one raid while others have to get one piece from each dungeon, the amount of loot per hour can change for a given dungeon, and can be as low as 0 loot per hour, etc. If you convolve a crazy ass function with the flat function of uniform random, you get a crazy ass function in return, not a flat one.
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You're right, but my argument is DKP has more issues than /random in terms of fairness of loot distribution. There probably is a third, superior way to both, but nobody is bothered to think of it. They just continue to patch the flawed DKP system when it springs leaks.
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And to your point about DKP being about cheating - I'm not sure if you've ever ran a DKP system yourself, but I have, and let me tell you it is super annoying especially at the time on live when we had to remember to take the right logs in the right way during hectic new encounters, copy paste them in the system correctly, fix any errors, deal with adjusting stuff that has been bought, sit around taking bids (our system wasn't DKP it was a custom bidding system). It was just a massive headache and basically any time it was my turn to run it for a raid that was easily 50% of what I did during that raid. Loot upgrades too quickly in progression guilds for this time commitment to develop and run a DKP system just to poach a few extra loots for yourself to be worth it.
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I was talking about fairness, not cheating. I don't think most people in a DKP guild are deliberately trying to screw anyone over. Most privileged folks aren't, they're just blind to their advantage over others.
12-04-2016, 02:20 AM
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