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Juris has big lobes clearly has multiple degrees on the subject. Concede filbert.
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His point was that the soviet system relied on oppression and forced labor.
I guess if I was a member of the Soviet Union 50 years ago I might give a shit. Today... What does that have to do with fucking anything? Can you even find a actual Leninist alive today? I look at it as interesting history kind of like learning about the Roman Empire or the War of Roses. But its omnipresence in every discussion about anything left of Trump is a clear sign of propaganda. The American system would not function without prisons (more than any in the world but in quantity and in % of population), a corrupt media, and violent suppression of third world slave labor. And just like the USSR -- most of the benefits to this highly immoral system concentrate at the top. If you want to use that lens, knock yourself out. Any jackass can kick down a barn but it takes a lot more to build one. | ||
Last edited by JurisDictum; 06-21-2018 at 01:09 AM..
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My point is that a lot of what you were saying was wrong and there's evidence to back it up. Glad we are on the same page now.
Grats on your hike big j. now THATS news | ||
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What is this have to do with Stalin's command ability during the war? | |||
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There like 5 thoughts in my head here.
1) it doesn't matter. This is just a relatively pointless discussion about history that has no bearing on modern politics. 2) All the problems of Russia are dumped on Stalin and the Soviet system in a desperate way. We can't just talk about shit Stalin did wrong like the Red Terror...we got to pretend he invented poverty in Russia. When in reality, it was reduced. That's just a fact. In general, things got better far more rapidly than either people like Trump or people like Vladimir Putin would ever admit. Despite all the horror (which at the time was kept secret to the population as much as possible). It's interesting that its very important to western propaganda to frame Stalin's policies as making the country more poor than it would have been otherwise. When the more obvious point is that he killed a shitload of people. 3) Stalin was popular after death because he won an extremely difficult war. He did this by shooting military leaders among other things...apparently is unacceptable tragedy when he killed military leaders -- but the deaths of huge swaths of the male population are to be expected. This was the notion I was trying to tease out. 4) After Stalin died -- Russia chose to reform and become less of a killing machine. The problem is, the soviet system required bureaucrats and workers to be horrified of being charged with disloyalty . Otherwise, when they get away with corruption America-style, its even worse than in America because of the far reach of the government, and the inability to fire bad workers. 5) China chose not to revise everything the way Russia chose to...They didn't publically criticize how Mao fucked everything up and was morally bankrupt. They certainly didn't try to pretend he didn't win the war for them. Which of these two countries seem better off to you today? My point is not that China is a lovely place to live or that the USSR was. My point is this idea that leftwing policies cause poverty has been never been substantiated. What has been, is that leftwing extremists kill people...but that's not a very useful point for corporate elites to publicize...is it? | ||
Last edited by JurisDictum; 06-21-2018 at 02:11 AM..
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What we're talking about for those not in the know
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It's worth noting that we were -- ya know -- during prime cold war years (1973) when the west came out and portrayed this book as the best ever written and totally authoritative (it was a story not a sociological work with citations). So I guess you can believe that...I don't see why the fuck you would. Meanwhile. Why not give it a quick read? Well, its because its a long pretentious written book by a intellectual that makes a long work out of a short point...not mention I don't find it particularly convincing that the entire soviet system was based around working people to death...it happened in the war years a bit, but it wasn't all that common in the USSR in general. Work yes...to death? no. There's not a lot of hard evidence of that BTW -- most the stories you hear about these camps are devoid of people being worked to death on documented interviews... its extremely common to hear about those that went to the gulag...most of them did not die it seems. Another story to look out for: The one about the woman in a big house that was only not killed by the communists because she was pregnant....yea its told all over the world -- its a freakn' legend not family history...the communist didn't knock on the doors of mansions and ask the people who the were etc...they found out before hand and just went there and grabbed you if they had a problem, which was the case if you were a landlord in China, or a Czarist during the revolutionary era of Russia. If you had a kid would make no difference. Edit: I also feel it necessary to point out that Solzhenitsyn was a raging anti-semite -- so far right people love him for this as well. | |||
Last edited by JurisDictum; 06-21-2018 at 04:23 AM..
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Taking bets on whether bigj gets killed by a bear or a serial killer hunting women.
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