Cant Decide! (Bard or Ranger)

[Jimjam]

Agreed, it's not that empirical. It would be better to just face one mob on its own for the 20k damage than have it spread across a bunch of mobs. You do have the avoidance rate and average hit here, which gives the two measures we were discussing (avoidance and mitigation), but you are right the spread would also be salient.

All the stuff there is about lvl 48-51, so not that wide a spread of levels. It is fairly representative of what you would be fighting overall if you were camping hands. Each tank did take 20k or more damage, i.e. 300+ hits, so it was pretty extensive.

It really surprised me to see such a similar average hit across the board.

I believe at 52/53 I was sitting at about 190 AC. More or less ivy etched with easily soloable high AC items like targishan's mask and a couple of crystal chitin items from grouping at velks zone in.

Edit: oh and yeah, I would be interested in testing worn ac vs defensive skill caps, etc if you are too?

[Troxx]

Avoidance and average hit are only relevant if you're fighting the exact same mobs at the exact same levels. In a zone like KC - that's important. You've got a very wide range of mob types and level for each mob. Mobs higher than you will hit you more often and for harder. Mobs that are lower level will miss you more and hit for less. VS pit mobs and drolv BGs hit a lot harder than sentries or curates at the zone in. Data is always good, but you have to be very careful looking at large, irregular wads of data. One tank getting more or less of any mob type (highly likely) can very VERY heavily skew results.

Average hit means very little if you don't at least have a strict control of mob type.

To parse defense with any semblance of accuracy you have to go to great lengths to control whatever variables you can.

PS: I'm always happy to parse and gather data. I'm genuinely curious. I spent an insane amount of time doing this for the infamous hp vs AC wars that raged on thesteelwarrior and evil gamer.net back in the day.

[Jimjam]

I just combined a fight of cursed hands, constructs, drolvarg bodyguards, drolvarg warlords, constructs of sathir, decayed kylong iksar, decayed soldiers, knights of sathir, specral knights and spectral protectors from today. We killed other mobs, but these ones are around the same level so the only ones I included.

My 58 ranger was sharing tanking with a 54 monk.

average hit taken:
Ranger: 71
Monk: 70

real hits:
Ranger: 51%
Monk: 39%

riposte, parry/block, dodge
R 4.5, 6.5, 6%
M 2.5, 19, 6%

I think excluding the decayed prisoners (unlike the sample of the 53 ranger vs the paladins) skewered the average hit up a little bit, but as you can see the results are similar; average hit of 70ish, 50% avoidance rate for the ranger, with the monk avoiding even better than the paladins (thanks to block being better than parry on top off the improved defence skill).

This supports my assertion: for most xp content rangers can attain equivalent mitigation to the other melee classes, but it is their avoidance and hp total that let them down.

[Troxx]

58 vs 54 in KC will have a large impact on incoming damage. Was the monk under the weight cutoff? Comparable gear to you?

The take away I see is that a 54 monk took 25% less damage than a 58 ranger with very high AC for level. Getting hit 39% of the time vs 51% of the time. That same monk in same gear plus 4 levels will be mitigating and avoiding a lot better due to relative npc/pc level.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The take away I see is that a 54 monk took 25% less damage than a 58 ranger with very high AC for level. Getting hit 39% of the time vs 51% of the time. That same monk in same gear plus 4 levels will be mitigating and avoiding a lot better due to relative npc/pc level.

Exactly the take away I was trying to point out. People cite mitigation as the ranger weakness. With gear and AC buffs it isn't that much of a problem (and note: my rangers gear isn't that great. It's not like it is full skyshrine. It is largely stuff I have found in the field while travelling or XPing). The problem is their low avoidance (and I jokingly mentioned that at least their poor avoidance improves their dps from damage shields).

54 vs 58 won't make much difference btw; my defence skill capped at level 40, my worn AC almost falls within the level 54 cap (I have ~210 worn, the 54 cap is 205). Parry/dodge are bugged so they haven't raised beyond the old caps either.

 

For reference this is my gear: orc fang earring x 2, circlet of talon, targishin's bone mask, griffon talon necklace, Ivy Etched Tunic, Imbued Granite Spaulders, dark cloak of the skies, spider fur belt, skyshrine quest sleeves, bracer of vajeen, hero bracer, crystal chitin guantlets and boots, gladiator chain leggings, velium fire wedding ring, some 15 AC ring from ToV, a wurm slayer, swiftwind and either an orc impaler or a spectral bow. Almost all of this you can acquire equivalent or better in xp or solo locations, so I am reluctant to call a largely self found toon 'decently geared'. I think the only thing I bought was the wurm slayer and was gifted the bracer of vajeen at a low level.

[Samoht]

What happens when you compare your stats to a tank instead of a monk? And then separately to a tank with a shield?

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What happens when you compare your stats to a tank instead of a monk? And then separately to a tank with a shield?

TBH I am interested to find this out. Especially the shield part!

I already included a compilation of fights comparing the ranger to several paladins a few posts up. (I foolishly included decayed prisoners in that compilation as I forgot they were lower than everything else at hands/basement).

Troxx I have a chunk of free time coming up soon if you fancy spending a few hours on your shaman comparing several AC builds? I have a warrior we can also use.

[Troxx]

Where a mob hits on the damage interval spread is a direct function of the mobs attack level, your REAL (not displayed) AC, and the relationship between the mobs level and yours. KC is a zone where you effectively overpower the content at or around 56-57.

There is indeed a big difference (both avoidant and mitigation) between 54 and 58 in KC. Having a difference in level spread 4 levels deep in a zone like KC is quite huge.

At 58 tanking KC on my monk feels like god mode, and that's after liquidating the monks fungi and black panther armor to fund my shamans torpor. Right now I'm rocking nodrop crescent crap from dalnir. Only items worth mentioning are weapons, epic, dragonborn sash haste and a thurg quest bracer. I'm anal about staying under weight limit and float buffless at 950 displayed AC.

[Jimjam]

Hmm, that is very interesting. Don't remember hearing that a level comparison was involved in mitigation before. Always thought it was straight attack vs mitigation ac.

That doesn't explain why the ranger tanked similarly at 52/53 to 58 in terms of average hit.

If I include decayed prisoners and look at the average hit for all melee at 58, the average hit was 64, the exact same figure as it was at 53*. Kind of depressing as there is no improvement at all, despite raising worn AC and the supposed worn cap!

I suspect your monk is still mitigating well at 58 with bare bones gear it may be due to a mixture of the monk low weight bonus, an increased defence skill and an undertuned mob attack value in KC?

It is certainly an interesting point you raise! If your monk and shaman are on separate accounts do you have a friend who can play one of them so we can throw him into the tests too?


*I realised that my 58 ranger vs 54 monk comparison used the average hit of 'hit' type attacks, so was excluding crush/slash/pierce and importantly kick/bashes too. So for my 58 vs 53 ranger I have included them to have a like-for-like comparison.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TBH I am interested to find this out. Especially the shield part!

I already included a compilation of fights comparing the ranger to several paladins a few posts up. (I foolishly included decayed prisoners in that compilation as I forgot they were lower than everything else at hands/basement).

Troxx I have a chunk of free time coming up soon if you fancy spending a few hours on your shaman comparing several AC builds? I have a warrior we can also use.

Would love to. I can donate a 60 bard and 58 monk to the pool for tanking. When not gathering data on those two melee I can heal endlessly on shaman vs an unslowed mob to get lots of data points. Ideally we would want to use literally the same mob - do you have access to a healer that can root for gathering data on my two melee? Bard can nearly solo heal himself with Nivs + cantana.

I'm in Amsterdam for a few more days before heading back home. I play Euro time zone.

I fully expect that with gear power otherwise equal mitigation will break down to (100 as warrior baseline) - nobody with a shield:

Warrior 100
Pal/Sk 110-115
Monk at weight 115-120
Bard 115-120
Ranger 125-130

Factor in avoidance and monk rivals warrior in total damage taken.

Functionally, ignoring hp totals: warrior >= monk > knight > bard > ranger

On hard content factoring in hp AND cleric to complete heal and excluding aggro dynamics ...

Warrior >> knight > monk >>> bard > ranger

Both ranger and bard will benefit greatly with next patch. Ranger defense bumps to 220 with parry 185. Bard parry jumps from like a pitiful 75 to 185 as well.