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  #21  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:40 AM
galach galach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashking [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
So information from actual log files with consistent time stamping isn't enough because people could fake them - (Consider that permaban thing for such attempts).

Now its become we have to be video experts and provide timed play by play because a long recording of constant bad behavior 30+ minutes is too much.

I mean damn to sit there and make any sort of petition with any attempt at real evidence is rather time consuming which could be better spent having fun on our characters. I fully support reporting people breaking the rules because its the only way we can try to correct their behavior or have them removed from the server.

I can speak from practical experience, because I have submitted things in many forms and doing video work is just added work. There is fact of getting a recording, then if its raw data, compressing it so that it doesn't take 2 days to upload, and now you want the players to spoon feed exact time clips and play by play. I mean by no means am I going to edit a video to provide play by play commentary such that it will then be claimed to be faked. Game logs provide consistent time stamping of all the mob / player / and text; this information should be good enough to get a picture of what's going on in general.
Logs show one side. You can just wipe yourself & petition say you were trained by so-and-so. The logs would show that you stopped killing, but it wouldn't prove you were trained or if you just died due to bad luck. Just like any evidence, video evidence trumps all.

You can have OBS always recording in a buffer and just hit a keystroke to save the last 5 or 10 minutes. I'd suggest having this going just in case. It's not 2002 where FRAPS took up your entire hard drive in 15 minutes & took 95% of your CPU and GPU to run.

It literally takes one key stroke to save the last 5,10, 15 minutes (whatever you want) and 1 click to upload it to streamable. You can just say this happens at XX:XX. Not that hard. I can't be available 24/7 to deal with issues & like I said I need to see it first hand or have video evidence as proof.
  #22  
Old 02-13-2020, 12:50 PM
derpcake2 derpcake2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
It's on you to provide evidence. They can only see so much from the logs (most of the story but not all the moving parts).
Pretty sure logs contain this info:

- who agroed what
- what attacked who
- who cast what in between of these happenings

Anyway.
  #23  
Old 02-13-2020, 12:51 PM
derpcake2 derpcake2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galach [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Logs show one side. You can just wipe yourself & petition say you were trained by so-and-so.
Don't server logs include who agroed a mob?

I'd understand if it was a "facilitate our job" thing, just wondering since previous actions by staff have me suspecting that server logs do allow tracing these things.
  #24  
Old 02-13-2020, 02:20 PM
cd288 cd288 is offline
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Originally Posted by derpcake2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Pretty sure logs contain this info:

- who agroed what
- what attacked who
- who cast what in between of these happenings

Anyway.
Okay, but those three things literally prove nothing in the context of a kill/camp stealing accusation. They also, by themselves, do not prove anything about an intentional training accusation.

For example, if it's a training accusation, you might see that someone aggroed something and it also attacked another player. But you have no idea of knowing if that was an intentional train unless you are there to see it, have video evidence of it, or have the accused player admitting in chat that it was intentional. All you have is someone claiming it was an intentional train, but accidental trains happen all the time and aren't against the rules. You can't look at that log and then just believe the person claiming it was intentional, because then you've unfairly punished someone for something they did totally by accident.

For another example, if it's a kill/camp stealing accusation, those logs also tell you nothing. You could have logs that show Player A killed a mob 12 minutes ago and then 12 minutes later Player B killed the same mob. That tells you nothing about whether any stealing/griefing went on. Player A could've been AFK (therefore losing the camp), they could have run off to do something while waiting for a respawn (therefore losing the camp), plus countless other types of scenarios that those logs alone wouldn't be able to tell you. You need to have video evidence, have the CSR member witness it in person, or have the accused person admit in chat that they were doing something wrong and screenshot/log it.

It's been this way going all the way back to 1999.
  #25  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:57 PM
Crashking Crashking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galach [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Logs show one side. You can just wipe yourself & petition say you were trained by so-and-so. The logs would show that you stopped killing, but it wouldn't prove you were trained or if you just died due to bad luck. Just like any evidence, video evidence trumps all.

You can have OBS always recording in a buffer and just hit a keystroke to save the last 5 or 10 minutes. I'd suggest having this going just in case. It's not 2002 where FRAPS took up your entire hard drive in 15 minutes & took 95% of your CPU and GPU to run.

It literally takes one key stroke to save the last 5,10, 15 minutes (whatever you want) and 1 click to upload it to streamable. You can just say this happens at XX:XX. Not that hard. I can't be available 24/7 to deal with issues & like I said I need to see it first hand or have video evidence as proof.

I can agree that a logfile is telling a story in general from one side as it comes from the person doing the recording and there are distance limits and such to what it records.


I can also tell you that video recording is just as bad, because it only shows what is on the screen in the view aspect of the player recording it. I can speak from experience here in saying First Person doesn't really provide a great view of what is going on and to stop and trying to adjust camera while trying to stay alive isn't always possible.


The logging data captured by having game logs running can provide a far clearer picture and can be verified there by the server side data. I understand its a lot of work to deal with a petition and confirm a claim but sadly that's the job. I have some idea here to make things less stressful but since I can't get an audience with Rogean / Nilbog on issue of past, I don't see how I can present thing that should be discussed to make improvements.


I can't speak of the capability of OBS software there as I have yet to toy with it, but sure if you have and it does the buffering and such great. However, as was stated prior a short 5 or 10 min recording might not show a whole picture. Also, I stand by my statement of not getting a good idea of the situation because often we are fighting for our lives instead of trying to record proof of bad deeds.


I've stated this a number of times.. I'm more than willing to give a full days break down from my game log or even the entire things since i started playing to show that it isn't faked. and the excerpt portions pasted into a petition are indeed true and accurate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Okay, but those three things literally prove nothing in the context of a kill/camp stealing accusation. They also, by themselves, do not prove anything about an intentional training accusation.

For example, if it's a training accusation, you might see that someone aggroed something and it also attacked another player. But you have no idea of knowing if that was an intentional train unless you are there to see it, have video evidence of it, or have the accused player admitting in chat that it was intentional. All you have is someone claiming it was an intentional train, but accidental trains happen all the time and aren't against the rules. You can't look at that log and then just believe the person claiming it was intentional, because then you've unfairly punished someone for something they did totally by accident.

For another example, if it's a kill/camp stealing accusation, those logs also tell you nothing. You could have logs that show Player A killed a mob 12 minutes ago and then 12 minutes later Player B killed the same mob. That tells you nothing about whether any stealing/griefing went on. Player A could've been AFK (therefore losing the camp), they could have run off to do something while waiting for a respawn (therefore losing the camp), plus countless other types of scenarios that those logs alone wouldn't be able to tell you. You need to have video evidence, have the CSR member witness it in person, or have the accused person admit in chat that they were doing something wrong and screenshot/log it.

It's been this way going all the way back to 1999.

While your example might provide case light to some examples. I can certainly provide you with specific counter examples that do indeed show what went on. As I have put forth exact petitions to the GMs with full game logging. As I stated before the idea of someone faking a log .. should be a completely ban-able offense if a player is caught. As with most things 2 sides to a story so yes, I'd recommend to any one else to have logging running so you can show the GM's your exact side. The comparison of both sets of logs by GM can easily show if one party has doctored something and in addition comparison to the actual server logs. I've never seen the server side stuff, but i suspect it is similar to the client side logging and has specific time stamping embedded into it.


Though the years playing here, I have been forced to learn how to be "EQ lawyer" such that I can defend myself verse any ones claims against me. The vagueness of the PnP in many areas may leave room for GM decisions, but at the same time, it allows a good amount of conflict to exist which brings forth the need to have a GM come step in. The largest problem I see is many don't know or haven't read the PnP or lack the full understanding of what is written there. In addition that can be compounded with those that have read / understand the PnP but don't care because they seem to think there is no punishment for breaking them, because the amount and burden of proof involved to report these violations falls on the victim of their actions. I can state fully that the amount of time I have put forth to submit petitions with full evidence has taken a number of hours, as I comb back though the client side logging to pull out relevant information, and provide my commentary of what was going on at that stage. The times at which I had video recording, it just compounded the time spent as I described previously. You have to use the tools you have at hand, until you can find & learn how to use better tools.


I found something new here the other day that is a number of month old and yet it weakens things allowing more people to become victims of those that don't follow the PnP.
  #26  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:23 PM
Bigsham Bigsham is offline
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didnt read that huge post, if you dont have evidence whats galach supposed to do?

answer: Nothing no proof

he probably has 1200 petitions from babies to deal with everytime he logs in.
  #27  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:32 PM
Crashking Crashking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsham [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
didnt read that huge post, if you dont have evidence whats galach supposed to do?

answer: Nothing no proof

he probably has 1200 petitions from babies to deal with everytime he logs in.



why make such a dumb post if you aren't going to read the content of the discussion?



I don't doubt there are many petitions out there. That wasn't being disputed.
  #28  
Old 02-14-2020, 12:28 AM
waltjig waltjig is offline
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Fact is these guides don’t get paid so be nice and wait patiently, or go get fucked ✌️
  #29  
Old 02-14-2020, 04:17 AM
Menden Menden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashking [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I can agree that a logfile is telling a story in general from one side as it comes from the person doing the recording and there are distance limits and such to what it records.


I can also tell you that video recording is just as bad, because it only shows what is on the screen in the view aspect of the player recording it. I can speak from experience here in saying First Person doesn't really provide a great view of what is going on and to stop and trying to adjust camera while trying to stay alive isn't always possible.


The logging data captured by having game logs running can provide a far clearer picture and can be verified there by the server side data. I understand its a lot of work to deal with a petition and confirm a claim but sadly that's the job. I have some idea here to make things less stressful but since I can't get an audience with Rogean / Nilbog on issue of past, I don't see how I can present thing that should be discussed to make improvements.


I can't speak of the capability of OBS software there as I have yet to toy with it, but sure if you have and it does the buffering and such great. However, as was stated prior a short 5 or 10 min recording might not show a whole picture. Also, I stand by my statement of not getting a good idea of the situation because often we are fighting for our lives instead of trying to record proof of bad deeds.


I've stated this a number of times.. I'm more than willing to give a full days break down from my game log or even the entire things since i started playing to show that it isn't faked. and the excerpt portions pasted into a petition are indeed true and accurate.





While your example might provide case light to some examples. I can certainly provide you with specific counter examples that do indeed show what went on. As I have put forth exact petitions to the GMs with full game logging. As I stated before the idea of someone faking a log .. should be a completely ban-able offense if a player is caught. As with most things 2 sides to a story so yes, I'd recommend to any one else to have logging running so you can show the GM's your exact side. The comparison of both sets of logs by GM can easily show if one party has doctored something and in addition comparison to the actual server logs. I've never seen the server side stuff, but i suspect it is similar to the client side logging and has specific time stamping embedded into it.


Though the years playing here, I have been forced to learn how to be "EQ lawyer" such that I can defend myself verse any ones claims against me. The vagueness of the PnP in many areas may leave room for GM decisions, but at the same time, it allows a good amount of conflict to exist which brings forth the need to have a GM come step in. The largest problem I see is many don't know or haven't read the PnP or lack the full understanding of what is written there. In addition that can be compounded with those that have read / understand the PnP but don't care because they seem to think there is no punishment for breaking them, because the amount and burden of proof involved to report these violations falls on the victim of their actions. I can state fully that the amount of time I have put forth to submit petitions with full evidence has taken a number of hours, as I comb back though the client side logging to pull out relevant information, and provide my commentary of what was going on at that stage. The times at which I had video recording, it just compounded the time spent as I described previously. You have to use the tools you have at hand, until you can find & learn how to use better tools.


I found something new here the other day that is a number of month old and yet it weakens things allowing more people to become victims of those that don't follow the PnP.
Not a job

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsham [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
didnt read that huge post, if you dont have evidence whats galach supposed to do?

answer: Nothing no proof

he probably has 1200 petitions from babies to deal with everytime he logs in.
Pretty much on the 1200 petitions part, galach works his ass off.


Here's the thing guys, we do this on a volunteer basis. The player base can help a little in submitting their case with as much detail as possible, but don't give us a novel. If you can't do that, it's probably not that important to you. If you paid a monthly fee and this was a paid gig for us, sure maybe you would be entitled to better service and faster petitions resolutions but we do what we can. Server side logs only show so much.

Guides only have access to a small portion of the logs and when they need more data they usually turn to me which takes up my time and other tasks get left behind such as verifying drop logs which I'm incredibly far behind on.

If you find yourself having issues with players again and again, this may not be the game for you. With all my time on blue I may have had to petition once or twice. That's it.
  #30  
Old 02-14-2020, 06:41 AM
Dolalin Dolalin is offline
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What would be cool is a live replay log from the zone servers that could be loaded up and replayed to a client to get a full picture of what happened and who did what. One for the eqemu team maybe.
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