A long and boring post about the origins of Everquest, from someone who was there

[Ennewi]

/thank
/ponder

And hell, what do you know, ranger was regarded for years as the worst class on TorilMUD.

and /laugh

[monkeydoc]

Was the chessboard from Sojourn or some other MUD? I remember finding a chessboard and fighting pieces on a MUD when visiting my older brother. Then seeing it in BB (and eventually TD).

[BlackBellamy]

Originally Posted by Tunabros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Never played MUD but they seem to be quite complicated
Maybe Im too used to modern games

MUDs are literal descendants of the first text adventure games everyone played before any graphics became a thing. They basically took games like Zork or Planetfall and added the ability for multiple players to play at the same time, and this happened right around the time everyone started getting their 300 baud modems and a shitty connection to Compuserve or Prodigy for $8 an hour.

If you think corpse runs or losing experience is tough imagine getting this experience back in the early 80s:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol yeah tough shit and also you're about to be eaten by a grue. Hope your torch lasts through the maze har har har.


You can play Zork here

http://www.web-adventures.org/games.html

[Izmael]

I seem to remember that there was trouble between Verant (or was it still 989 studios?) and DIKU authors at some point and Verant invited them over to their office to check the EQ source code out and see that there was no bits of DIKU in it. IIRC the DIKU guys left satisfied with what they saw (still probably bitter they weren't part of the team heh).

Now, on the plagiarism. There's the software, and the content - two different things.

There's little doubt that the software, client and server alike, were written by Brad and friends from scratch. Trying to convert a text/telnet based MUD to a real-time 3D/UDP game would have been an absurd decision that noone in their right mind would have made.

The little DIKU code that actually could have been reused would have probably been easier to simply rewrite from scratch, granting you true code ownership (from legal standpoint, as well as from the technical one - you don't really own code that you don't fully understand/control).

The fact they ported over some CONTENT (races/classes/basic world layout and stuff like that...) well, I wouldn't call it plagiarism, rather a tribute and recognition of the fact that it was good. Just like Sojourn didn't plagiarize Tolkien or whoever invented the halflings.

Besides, the true challenge back then was probably the technical part - 3D performance, seamlessly managing thousands of clients on the same server... remember the hardware we had back then? lol!

Interesting write-up nonetheless. I was too young to play MUDs when they were still a thing but I did play the EotL MUD a little bit... over a 2400 bps dial-up modem. Good times.

[BlackBellamy]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two human cities (Waterdeep with its rich port and and Baldur's Gate as a more rural region with large stretches of land around it--ring any bells?) and a swampy troll city, a neolithical-themed ogre city. Leuthilspar, the city of gnomish inventors. The dreamy elven forest city of... honestly, I can't remember the name. There was your frigid northern city of the barbarians, your stronghold of the dwarves deep in the mountains...

Originally Posted by Izmael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just like Sojourn didn't plagiarize Tolkien or whoever invented the halflings.

These are all very common fantasy tropes anyway, existing before all this in literature. How many human ports next to the plains have been there? Oh look there's one https://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Map_of_Sanctuary

I mean if I was making a world I would definitely be putting barbarians somewhere cold and trolls right in the swamp and of course the elves live in the forest.

(Yes you could put barbarians in the jungle but then they would be called 'savages'. Don't ask me, it's just the way it is.)

And the classes, well those are all tropes too, the warrior, the wizard, etc. Everyone was copying from everyone else those heady days. It was like a pandora's box was opened. All of a sudden fantasy has become cool in the past few decades with Tolkien and D&D becoming popular and computer fantasy games and people were miniature gaming with 40k and things like that, and everyone was generating content and ideas as fast as they could. Remember that was right before the apex of Fantasy Frenzy which hit in 2001 with the first LOTR movie being released and really kept up for like decade. I don't think it would have been feasible to release a fantasy product back around then without stepping on some one else's ideas.

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by BlackBellamy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

MUDs are literal descendants of the first text adventure games everyone played before any graphics became a thing. They basically took games like Zork or Planetfall and added the ability for multiple players to play at the same time, and this happened right around the time everyone started getting their 300 baud modems and a shitty connection to Compuserve or Prodigy for $8 an hour.

If you think corpse runs or losing experience is tough imagine getting this experience back in the early 80s:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol yeah tough shit and also you're about to be eaten by a grue. Hope your torch lasts through the maze har har har.


You can play Zork here

http://www.web-adventures.org/games.html

https://youtu.be/GVkT1ZPjmss?t=11

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by BlackBellamy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These are all very common fantasy tropes anyway, existing before all this in literature. How many human ports next to the plains have been there? Oh look there's one https://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Map_of_Sanctuary

I mean if I was making a world I would definitely be putting barbarians somewhere cold and trolls right in the swamp and of course the elves live in the forest.

(Yes you could put barbarians in the jungle but then they would be called 'savages'. Don't ask me, it's just the way it is.)

And the classes, well those are all tropes too, the warrior, the wizard, etc. Everyone was copying from everyone else those heady days. It was like a pandora's box was opened. All of a sudden fantasy has become cool in the past few decades with Tolkien and D&D becoming popular and computer fantasy games and people were miniature gaming with 40k and things like that, and everyone was generating content and ideas as fast as they could. Remember that was right before the apex of Fantasy Frenzy which hit in 2001 with the first LOTR movie being released and really kept up for like decade. I don't think it would have been feasible to release a fantasy product back around then without stepping on some one else's ideas.

Trust me, EQ copies a lot more from Sojourn/Toril than just the common fantasy tropes. Whole zones are basically copied and renamed, several items with literally the same names and stats, classes and races are basically exact replica besides a select few exceptions (Sojourn had yuan-ti, EQ had to call them iksars and give them legs because yuan-ti is a WotC trademark). The whole fundamental concept of these two games is basically the same. Sojourn actually plays exactly like text-based Everquest. A lot of the text prompts from things like socials are literal copy-pastes from Sojourn (some were stock DIKU, some not). This goes way beyond sticking to fantasy tropes, Brad very much used content from Sojourn.

That game's community was really pissed about it at the time, and they kinda had a point. Stuff like conjurer/magician being a class based on a permanent elemental pet chosen from one of the four elements, and mostly just damage spells besides, is not some kind of fantasy stereotype. All the classes are that similar, with just a few differences because EQ chose to use mana instead of memorized spell slots, and has a 3D graphical environment allowing for things like snares. While Sojourn is based heavily on AD&D, it also deviates from that ruleset in a number of ways to accomodate a level cap of 50 and a style of game where you can't "rest for the night." Everquest didn't copy D&D tropes, it copied Sojourn.

[greatdane]

Here's an excerpt from a newbie guide for Sojourn, circa 1998. Much of this is clearly inspired by D&D, but a lot of it was unique to that game:

CLASSES:

Cleric
Clerics heal. They pray for their spells, which are granted to them by their gods. They have good hitpoints, much more than mage types and can wear more equipment, for example platemail. Clerics are always a requirement in groups.

Shaman
These are a 'hybrid' priest and mage. They are more tribal, drawing their power from spirits. Shamans can heal to a lesser extent than Clerics, but they get some powerful offensive spells, a spirit pet, defensive and utility spells and a group healing spell which is very nice. Shamans are not a definitive requirement in groups (that is, without a shaman a group can still be formed), but they are always very welcome to join because of their strengths. For fighting dragons and other casting mobs, group heal is a requirement - this is when you cannot go without a shaman.

Druid
Priests of nature. They draw their spells from the gods of nature and the woodlands. They have healing and offensive spells, in addition to nice utility spells such as moonwell (teleportation). Not a requirement in groups but nice to have.

Invoker
These are mages who specialize in offensive magic. They have few hitpoints and no defensive spells, but their offense is really strong. Someone is always needed for damage in groups, so invokers are usually more than welcome.

Enchanter
These are mages who specialize in defensive magic. Similar to invokers in that they have few hitpoints, they protect and defend the group. They also get very nice utility spells and are very powerful at higher levels. Always needed in groups.

Elementalist (previously Conjurer)
Mages who specialize in conjuring. They get some nifty spells and four powerful elemental embodiments, each giving the recipient special powers. Using these, they can actually do a lot solo, too. Not a core requirement but very nice.

Necromancer
These are mages who dabble with the dead. They can raise and command undead. They get nice offensive spells, and the option to quest for the Lich class at high levels, which makes them even more powerful. Not a required class, but always welcome.

Warrior
Warriors take the beating from the enemy while the rest of the group fights it ('tanking'). They have the highest hitpoints in the game and skills which keep them alive and allow them to save other group members. Warriors don't do much damage, so know that before you roll one; choose a rogue or ranger instead if you want that. Always needed in groups.

Paladin
Crusaders of the just cause. They are hybrid Warriors/Priests, that is, they are warriors with priestly spells. They have fewer hitpoints than warriors, but some nice spells to make up for it. Also, they have the best defensive skills in the game. They ride on mounts and fight in mounted combat. They can wield 2-handed weapons without penalty. Get extra experience for slaying evil aligned creatures, but lose experience for slaying neutral or good creatures. They have to remain of good alignment, or lose their powers. Can easily replace a warrior as tank in a group. Overpowered in my opinion since they can do almost everything warriors can do, but better, in addition to many unique skills/spells.

Anti-Paladin
Crusaders of a foul cause. They are hybrid Warriors/Necromancers, and their spells are more offensive in nature. Also ride and fight mounted and wield 2-handed weapons. No bonus for killing any specific alignment, but don't have to worry about it either. Not required in groups, but a good addition.

Rogue
The thief/assassin class. Frailer than Warriors and (Anti)Paladins, they don't tank very well. But they can dual wield, backstab, use various poisons and do a great deal of damage. Can detect traps and disarm them and pick locks. Very strong offense. Sneak and hide are extremely powerful skills. Not required in groups unless the zone has traps or locks, but always welcome.

Ranger
Rangers are warriors attuned more to nature. They cannot tank as well as Warriors or (Anti)Paladins, but easily better than rogues. They get most skills warriors do, but are not as good at them. They can wield two weapons with great skill and do good damage. They can also use ranged combat, that is, fight with bows, and they do incredible damage this way. They are also granted some spells by their gods. Not a requirement in groups but nice to have.

Bard
Bards are musicians, their skill with song and instrument gives them the ability to magically influence players, fights and monsters. They can do some damage and provide nice utilities with their songs, especially at higher levels. They can do some damage with weapons as well. Bards are basically a cross between rogues and enchanters.


RACES:

Humans - the standard race by which all others are measured. No particular strengths or weaknesses. Good casters and rogues. Average warriors, but poor when compared to barbarians and dwarves. Good antis and paladins.
STR *** DEX *** AGI *** CON *** WIS *** INT *** CHA ***

Dwarves - shorter and much stronger than humans, but not as intelligent. Live long and thus wiser than humans. Good warriors and clerics. Have innate infravision (see red shapes in the dark).
STR **** DEX *** AGI ** CON **** WIS **** INT ** CHA **

Barbarians - taller and swarthier than humans, but slower and duller. Good warriors and shamans. Have bodyslam innate.
STR **** DEX ** AGI **** CON **** WIS *** INT ** CHA **

Halflings - small and very fast, but weak even though they have decent hitpoints. Make excellent rogues. Hide and sneak innate.
STR ** DEX ***** AGI **** CON *** WIS *** INT ** CHA ***

Grey Elves - frail and thin. Very intelligent, quite fast. Good casters and rangers, bad warriors. Innate infravision.
STR ** DEX **** AGI ***** CON ** WIS *** INT **** CHA ****

Half Elves - frailer than humans but stronger than elves. Excellent rangers. Innate infravision.
STR *** DEX *** AGI *** CON *** WIS *** INT *** CHA ***

Gnomes - a short, smart race, but also weak. Gnomes tend to fidget around and invent things. Consequently, they make good mages.
STR ** DEX *** AGI *** CON *** WIS ** INT ***** CHA **

Trolls - tall, thin but strong and very fast. Good strength and even better constitution and agility, but fire based spells destroy them and they are stupid as a rock. Good warriors. Have infravision, bodyslam and regenerate innates.
STR **** DEX ** AGI **** CON ***** WIS ** INT * CHA *

Ogres - huge and enormously strong, but slow and stupid as a rock. Excellent warriors. Innate bodyslam, infravision and doorbash. Highest hitpoints and strength of any race.
STR ***** DEX ** AGI ** CON ***** WIS * INT * CHA *

Drow - Evil elves, aka dark elves. Frail but smart and fast. Good casters and rogues. Innate levitation, faerie fire and ultravision (don't need a light to see in dark, but blind during the day).
STR ** DEX **** AGI **** CON ** WIS *** INT **** CHA ****

MUDs change a lot more than commercial games, so classes and races have been added/removed a number of times throughout the history of Sojourn. That's what they looked like at the time when Everquest was being designed. I have no idea what they might be today.

[unleashedd]

dark elves need daytime blindness! iksars should get a nighttime debuff

[BlackBellamy]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Trust me, EQ copies a lot more from Sojourn/Toril than just the common fantasy tropes. Whole zones are basically copied and renamed, several items with literally the same names and stats,

Oh yeah I'm not denying all that, it's just that I'm willing to accept it as part of a general fantasy/software development trends at that time. My point was that Sojourn wasn't completely original - it's not like Brad adapted Ringworld or Riverworld which are unique concepts, he copied from people who were copying from others. Maybe not in the same detail but tomatoes tomatos.