Do you believe in fatalism or free will?

[SorenVC]

I would argue that the more pain a person experiences the less he will believe in free will and instead bet all cards on fatalism. It is the most pleasant philosophy to believe in. If anyone asks you what you believe in you can call yourself an ultra-fatalist and that will answer all questions while not giving away anything about yourself. When you die, you leave this world. The world continues without you. So what makes you think that you have free will and are important? Even if you had free will, you could change nothing that would be important - hence fatalism rules everything.

[SorenVC]

Humility is the opposite of pride which is a sin. And humility is letting go of all control that you might have. Humility is counting yourself as NOT IMPORTANT - this it the ultimate truth for me. I am not important. Neither is anyone else. We will all die and the world will continue without us. So why not believe in fatalism and be content with what you have?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Originally Posted by SorenVC [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You just described an LGBTQ person, not a fatalist. A fatalist will shrug off anything and be content with what he has. He will try to improve his position and be good towards all people, even criminals, as Jesus would. But in the end hopefully we will all be judged so that everyone realizes the mistake in his choices. Although if our choice was fated there might be no judgement. I do not know how life works okay. I'm just betting all cards on fatalism because I have no choice. Fatalism truly makes me happy. If I choose Iksar it is because they are the loneliest race and only socialize within their own circles. They are LIKE me. That's why I like the lizard people.

Lol LGBT? You’re going to have to explain that, not following

You will try to “improve your position” by what? Begging? You already said that you control nothing. So do you just beg for your income? Beg someone to give you a job. Then when they ask your skillset and it’s not enough, rather than improve that skillset you go find someone else to beg and maybe they’ll say yes this time?

You will not improve without growth, and you will not grow without acknowledging your failures and what YOU did (or did not do) to cause them

[SorenVC]

Originally Posted by NopeNopeNopeNope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol LGBT? You’re going to have to explain that, not following

You will try to “improve your position” by what? Begging? You already said that you control nothing. So do you just beg for your income? Beg someone to give you a job. Then when they ask your skillset and it’s not enough, rather than improve that skillset you go find someone else to beg and maybe they’ll say yes this time?

You will not improve without growth, and you will not grow without acknowledging your failures and what YOU did (or did not do) to cause them

Your growth and your acknowledging failures was fated. You don't understand fatalism enough. It means everything is fated. And to me - it makes perfect sense. You can still become a powerful world leader believing in fatalism and you can be a nobody believing in fatalism. There is no free will. Free will is all about the ego - I am weak so I must train to become stronger. See how that works out for you? I have no money so I must become Andrew Tate and scam people or start many businesses. It is all pride and ego, this free will. Fatalism is accepting life for what it is - fate. It frees you from your selfish desires, from your selfish goals, from ambition. Those are evil and from Satan. Fatalism is accepting that you are perfect the way you are and that nothing need be changed.

[SorenVC]

Originally Posted by NopeNopeNopeNope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol LGBT? You’re going to have to explain that, not following

You will try to “improve your position” by what? Begging? You already said that you control nothing. So do you just beg for your income? Beg someone to give you a job. Then when they ask your skillset and it’s not enough, rather than improve that skillset you go find someone else to beg and maybe they’ll say yes this time?

You will not improve without growth, and you will not grow without acknowledging your failures and what YOU did (or did not do) to cause them

Everything just happens TO YOU. Perfectly describes LGBTQ people. Fatalists will not complain. They will accept life as it is and deal with it.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Originally Posted by SorenVC [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your growth and your acknowledging failures was fated. You don't understand fatalism enough. It means everything is fated. And to me - it makes perfect sense. You can still become a powerful world leader believing in fatalism and you can be a nobody believing in fatalism. There is no free will. Free will is all about the ego - I am weak so I must train to become stronger. See how that works out for you? I have no money so I must become Andrew Tate and scam people or start many businesses. It is all pride and ego, this free will. Fatalism is accepting life for what it is - fate. It frees you from your selfish desires, from your selfish goals, from ambition. Those are evil and from Satan. Fatalism is accepting that you are perfect the way you are and that nothing need be changed.

No need to be hyperbolic. Just because someone works out doesn’t mean they want to look like Arnold. Just because someone wants to work doesn’t mean they want to scam their way into becoming some Andrew Tate clone. The ratio of honorable workers out there in the world to dishonorable is probably about 100-1 or even higher

What you are doing is picking what you see as undesirable outcomes on some polarized edge of the spectrum of people as an excuse to not try. Comes across to me as lazy, not enlightened

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Originally Posted by SorenVC [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everything just happens TO YOU. Perfectly describes LGBTQ people. Fatalists will not complain. They will accept life as it is and deal with it.

LGBTQ people, like any people, do not think as some hivemind, believe it or not [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dems think as a hivemind lol (they don’t but I’d be more likely to agree with that one) But there are LGBT conservatives out there

[shovelquest]

Originally Posted by NopeNopeNopeNope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But there are LGBT conservatives out there

They wouldn't be identifying as LGBT then. So it's a catch 22. You are correct, but also there are none.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Dozens and dozens of Reddit bro’s have taken various forms of this argument during my time there. Except theirs was a bit more practical and less theological

Their argument was always “why can’t I be content where I am as single, lonely, and unemployed and not be some wage slave to a corporate overlord?”

The real issue is and always has been the work. “Wage slave” implies entry level jobs. The greater your skillset and education, the more leverage you have not just in pay but how you are treated as well. If these Reddit bros were just man enough to come out snd admit “hey man, it’s just too much work for me to improve my skillset that much” I’d be like /fistbump bro right there with ya. I don’t think I could become a doctor or engineer, that’s just too much school. But I at least have the balls to admit the truth and not try to do some mental gymnastics about how it’s really about capitalism and not my own personal laziness

[Lune]

Scientifically, we don't really know yet. At scales larger than subatomic particles, things generally work deterministically, that is, acting in an intricate and unbroken chain of causality stretching back to the Big Bang. Everything you have ever done or ever will do was determined at the instant of creation.

Quantum mechanics revealed some qualities of the universe that appear to behave probabilistically. There was a huge debate between Einstein and the determinists on one side and Niels Bohr and the quantum mechanics/randomness kooks on the other (this is where Einstein's "God Does Not Play Dice" quote came from. Most scientists these days lean toward randomness being real but there are still things like hidden variables theories (the guys who won the Nobel prize in Physics in 2022 won it for dunking on these hidden variables people).

There are still holdouts in the determinism camp, like superdeterminism, which basically argues there is an underlying deterministic godhand behind every supposedly 'random' result. This is probably unfalsifiable and is closer to a religion than a scientific theory.

So if probability is a real quality of the universe, it is very much possible that you actually have free will, that you are actually making your own decisions-- but it feels unlikely and I'll explain a few oblique ways it could be possible:

1. Orchestrated Objective Reduction: Argues that the microtubules in the neurons of your central nervous system bridge our consciousness with the quantum realm, and allow us to collapse wave functions as a singular entity to create our objective reality and essentially act as a quantum computer. Seems like mystical woo-woo shit right? Well consider that 100 years later we still have no fucking idea how general anesthesia works, we can't find a mechanism anywhere in the cells of our brain. But a few interesting studies in the last few years have found a connection to microtubules. Most consider this theory to be bullshit.

2. Allegory of the Cave, or Idealism: We entirely create or singularly experience our own reality, like a stream of data into a receiver. At the instant of observation, when the wave function collapses, and a pixel of the universe transforms from a wave function (data), to a particle (reality), it provides its 'causal history' contained within the wave (in the form of its energy, direction, amplitude etc). Was any of it actually real?

Einstein, questioning the apparent absurdity of quantum mechanical explanations for reality, famously was like "So you're saying the moon isn't there when I'm not observing it?". And the quantum mechanics/randomness people were like "You can't prove that it is". And they were right. Our observations, or at least the objective collapse of a wave function, have the power to ret-con their own history through time. This can also be explained as: they are neither a particle or a wave, they are nothing at all until we create/observe them. Indistinguishable from the fabric of the universe and reality.

In this paradigm, reality is nothing more than a stream of data, and we make real choices with our free will, and the stream constructs a plausible deterministic history. This would have some power in explaining things like synchronicities and the collective unconscious, basically themes in the fabric of the dream. (Interestingly, this idea came from a collaboration between Carl Jung, an analytic psychologist, and Wolfgang Pauli, one of the originators of quantum mechanics, both mystics).

Basically:

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