Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[sonofbaal]

So there is a lot of debate on Trolls vs Ogre for shaman, so I wanted to see just how much the troll regen really mattered. The objective is to find out which class is more efficient with mana , either in its regen or saving it.

Consider the following:

level 50:

Cani mana/hp ratio = .56
https://wiki.project1999.com/Cannibalize

ergo 50 hp turns into 28.

The Troll regen at level 50 is 1/4 (stand/sit) MORE hp than Ogre

Ergo, at level 50 , Troll canidancing will generate 2.24 effective mana per tick (.56*4), or 22.4 mana per minute, or 1344 mana per hour. How much is that?

4 evenomed bolts = 5112 dmg
9 gheals for = 2430 healing


Now comes the real question. In an hour , will you avoid that much damage of 2430 healing, by getting off a root/slow that would have gotten interrupted by stun?


Lets look at level 60:

Troll hp regen is is 7/11 respectively MORE than Ogre.
Which cana you would use the convert is going to depend on Kunark vs Vel, and how much time you want to waste canidancing. Lets go with the dirty quick canni3 with a ratio of .513 vels cani4 for .554


Kunark era quick = .513 * 7/11 =
for standing: 3.591mana/tick = 35.91 mana/min = 2154 mana/hour ,
for sitting : 5.643m/tick = 56.43m/min =3386 mana/hour .

Kunark era using CanI = .56*7/11 =
for standing: 3.92m/t = 39.2m/min = 2352mana/hour
for sitting : 6.16m/t = 61.6m/min = 3696 mana/hour

Vel cani 4 = .554
for standing : 3.899m/t = 38.99m/m = 2339mana/hour
for sitting: 6.09m/t = 60.9m/m= 3654 mana/hour

So how much is lets say 3600 mana end game?
about 24,300 healing per hour with turpor
and about 17,000 more dmg with Pox per hour.


The real question then ,is that worth it still?

Consider a single round of extra dmg you have to endure to root, lets say mid 50's thats around 400 dmg. How many times per hour does that happen? How many times in an hour do you have to take it in the face because you got bashed. Well in order to equate to 3600 mana per hour , you would have to take around 7000 dmg.

Of course are not soloing/tanking , then that is all moot. However, you cannot calculate saving your life because you got off a gate/root. But maybe , one might argue , you would have more mana as a troll , and could get off that gate/root that saves the day.

Finally there is the issue of the snare, which a Troll gets, and has utility when snare isnt available. Esp in velious when you can root and snare mobs.


Thoughts?Comment below , don't forget to leave a like ,share, subscribe, ring that bell, pull that lever, flip that switch, and toggle that dongle.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When you get Torpor at level 60, you will be regenerating at 300 HP per tick. This means the extra 8 HP you get as a Troll while standing (you RARELY sit as a 60 shaman with Torpor) is barely noticeable. I am not saying extra regeneration is useless when you have Torpor, but it becomes MUCH less significant.

This is why you rarely see level 60 Torpor Shamans running around with https://wiki.project1999.com/Fungus_Covered_Scale_Tunic . The extra regeneration becomes much less noticeable. Level 60 Torpor Shamans (myself included) tend to prefer https://wiki.project1999.com/Chestplate_of_Vindication for the high HP and high resists. If those Shamans are willing to lose an extra 13 HP regeneration per tick, they are certainly willing to lose an extra 8 HP regeneration per tick.

Frontal Stun Immunity, however, can be a lifesaver. When you are fighting a super tough mob, you will only have a few minutes to get control of the situation, or die. An untimely interrupt when casting Slow, or Torpor, could be the difference between life and death.

Lets say you only have 3 minutes to gain control of a situation or die, for example. that extra 8 HP regeneration from being a Troll will net you a measly 240 HP over 3 minutes. That is 1-2 hits from a tough mob. Not a lot of benefit. Getting less interrupts on a Torpor or Slow, however, means you have a higher chance of getting control of the situation. If you have to waste an extra 15 seconds trying to slow the mob due to interrupts, you are losing WAY more than 240 HP.

This is why Ogres tend to be considered the best Shaman race. Frontal Stun Immunity is something you cannot get on gear, and regeneration becomes much less desirable at 60 with Torpor.

EDIT: In terms of your snare question, the necklace is not that great. It lasts 6 ticks, and the snare is so bad the mob needs to be at 10% to stop running, instead of the usual 20%. Not to say it is useless, but it is definitely not as good as it would need to be to justify rolling a Troll over an Ogre. If you really want snare on an Ogre, you can get https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction. Removed Anklesmasher, thought it was Shaman usable for some reason.

[Baler]

Troll is the best min/max for shaman because of racial regen & decent stats. 25 wis / 5 sta

inb4 ogre fanboys grit their teeth and get red in the face.

But to what DeathsSilkyMist said... Once a shaman gets torpor, Race doesn't matter. It becomes a skill based class at that point. I've personally seen shaman of all races perform better than the min/max races. I even know a few barbarian shaman who can put ogre/troll to shame in the field.

I've soloed some of that hardest content as a shaman, Solo Grandmaster / Solo God Mode

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you get Torpor at level 60, you will be regenerating at 300 HP per tick. This means the extra 8 HP you get as a Troll while standing (you RARELY sit as a shaman) is barely noticeable. I am not saying extra regeneration is useless when you have Torpor, but it becomes MUCH less significant.

This is why you rarely see level 60 Torpor Shamans running around with https://wiki.project1999.com/Fungus_Covered_Scale_Tunic . The extra regeneration becomes much less noticeable. Level 60 Torpor Shamans (myself included) tend to prefer https://wiki.project1999.com/Chestplate_of_Vindication for the high HP and high resists. If those Shamans are willing to lose an extra 13 HP regeneration per tick, they are certainly willing to lose an extra 8 HP regeneration per tick.

Frontal Stun Immunity, however, can be a lifesaver. When you are fighting a super tough mob, you will only have a few minutes to get control of the situation, or die. An untimely interrupt when casting Slow, or Torpor, could be the difference between life and death.

Lets say you only have 3 minutes to gain control of a situation or die, for example. that extra 8 HP regeneration from being a Troll will net you a measly 240 HP over 3 minutes. That is 1-2 hits from a tough mob. Not a lot of benefit. Getting less interrupts on a Torpor or Slow, however, means you have a higher chance of getting control of the situation. If you have to waste an extra 15 seconds trying to slow the mob due to interrupts, you are losing WAY more than 240 HP.

This is why Ogres tend to be considered the best Shaman race. Frontal Stun Immunity is something you cannot get on gear, and regeneration becomes much less desirable at 60 with Torpor.

All this, except ... FSI isn't that big a deal. I 100% agree it does make Ogre Shaman best ... at level 60, with Torpor (but let's not dismiss just how long it will take you to get there either). But even so, it makes them only slightly, barely better than any other race.

The only bad Shaman race is Iksar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And even then I'm not really serious: the JBB isn't that big of a deal in the big picture.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh I agree. Frontal Stun Immunity is not a requirement on Shamans. We are just talking about Ogre vs. Troll specifically[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Pre-Torpor, Trolls are the best due to the extra regeneration, while still being able to use JBB. The lack of JBB is what makes Iksars a poor choice for leveling, sadly. Post-Torpor, Ogres are the best due to Frontal Stun Immunity becoming much more useful than 8 extra HP regeneration.

[Gustoo]

Yep. Ogres are the best.

But all the other races are great too. If I wasn't ogre, I would be a barbarian for sure. 100%

Unless I wanted the kunark experience, and I would be an iksar and level through kunark exclusively, clearing all zones and all dungeons through my leveling quest. Such a beautiful place to explore with so much interesting history.

[Baler]

Troll is the best, nothing can ruin the benefits of racial regen. Pre-60, Pre-torpor, Post-torpor Troll stats + Racial regen are $$$

Frontal stun doesn't stop interrupts. It stops Stuns.

Welcome to 1999 b****es

[sonofbaal]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you get Torpor at level 60, you will be regenerating at 300 HP per tick. This means the extra 8 HP you get as a Troll while standing (you RARELY sit as a 60 shaman with Torpor) is barely noticeable. I am not saying extra regeneration is useless when you have Torpor, but it becomes MUCH less significant.

This is why you rarely see level 60 Torpor Shamans running around with https://wiki.project1999.com/Fungus_Covered_Scale_Tunic . The extra regeneration becomes much less noticeable. Level 60 Torpor Shamans (myself included) tend to prefer https://wiki.project1999.com/Chestplate_of_Vindication for the high HP and high resists. If those Shamans are willing to lose an extra 13 HP regeneration per tick, they are certainly willing to lose an extra 8 HP regeneration per tick.

Frontal Stun Immunity, however, can be a lifesaver. When you are fighting a super tough mob, you will only have a few minutes to get control of the situation, or die. An untimely interrupt when casting Slow, or Torpor, could be the difference between life and death.

Lets say you only have 3 minutes to gain control of a situation or die, for example. that extra 8 HP regeneration from being a Troll will net you a measly 240 HP over 3 minutes. That is 1-2 hits from a tough mob. Not a lot of benefit. Getting less interrupts on a Torpor or Slow, however, means you have a higher chance of getting control of the situation. If you have to waste an extra 15 seconds trying to slow the mob due to interrupts, you are losing WAY more than 240 HP.

This is why Ogres tend to be considered the best Shaman race. Frontal Stun Immunity is something you cannot get on gear, and regeneration becomes much less desirable at 60 with Torpor.

EDIT: In terms of your snare question, the necklace is not that great. It lasts 6 ticks, and the snare is so bad the mob needs to be at 10% to stop running, instead of the usual 20%. Not to say it is useless, but it is definitely not as good as it would need to be to justify rolling a Troll over an Ogre. If you really want snare on an Ogre, you can get https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction. Removed Anklesmasher, thought it was Shaman usable for some reason.

Forgive me since I am not big game shaman, but does tupor act as a CH at level 60? not sure how many HP shaman are rolling with these days.

Even even with torpor running unless you are hitting full health, regen is still basically adding health and therefore mana. You are paying lets say 200 mana for 1200-1500 health, lets say at 1200 , you can then candi that down to 600 mana roughly speaking, but during this you are still getting mana shrug. I can kinda see it.

if we think about it another way , the 6mana/tick from the regen sitting , out of your meditate mana , which is what...21 , say you have crack, thats 32? So your regen is roughly 20-25% of your mana regen that you get from extra health that you cani.

Now what you can argue, and is such an interesting point that with efficient heals, you basically bump you mana to what...600mana/24 seconds assuming you turp/cani = 25m/s = or 800mana/24 seconds to get = 34

so if we low ball it take uh 25 + 21 from meditate + 11 from crack = 57m/tick which would render the 6hp/tick to about 10% of your total mana regen , which is still not insignificant. Highball would be 34 + 21 + 11 = 66m/tick

I hope all that made sense, and thank you for your input I really appreciate it.

I don't disagree that fsi can save the day.

[sonofbaal]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troll is the best min/max for shaman because of racial regen & decent stats. 25 wis / 5 sta

inb4 ogre fanboys grit their teeth and get red in the face.

But to what DeathsSilkyMist said... Once a shaman gets torpor, Race doesn't matter. It becomes a skill based class at that point. I've personally seen shaman of all races perform better than the min/max races. I even know a few barbarian shaman who can put ogre/troll to shame in the field.

I've soloed some of that hardest content as a shaman, Solo Grandmaster / Solo God Mode

Does Svenn still hang around here? i would be curious to his opinion

[sonofbaal]

I also just forgot 2 points.

1. Regrowth I assume stacks with turpor? if thats the case then it would further dilute a Trolls regen
2. Turpor removes haste? if yes then you would have to recast it if you were doing some mele carnage.