Someone Translate this wall of text from Omni

[loramin]

Originally Posted by destrozi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

True, but irrelevant.

How so? Our server has been in Velious for three-plus years now. On live in that timeframe they released Luclin, LoY, PoP, LDoN, and GoD. Do you really think second or third tier guilds, let alone top-end ones, gave a crap about Velious even as early as PoP (let alone in GoD)?

I played on live for years, but I'd quit and gone to WoW before Bristlebane had even gotten to the Velious-adjusted age of Blue; if you count from the beginning and include the seven years of Kunark, plus the Vanilla time before that, we'd be past the Veil of Alaris expansion! Who here even knows what that is?

But yeah, let's completely ignore all that and talk about how "classic" the current raid scene is [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice re-direct.

This is the mantra of the hardcore: "You are hopefully never going to get free pixels. Nevermind the fact that about 80% of our raid force pretty much gets free pixels. Because, uh, time and effort."

Again, what work is 80% of the raid force doing besides getting to a zone and pushing buttons when told? Please explain how they are "putting in the work to get loot"? Oh, that's right... you can't, as many times as you would love to dismiss the hypocrisy pointed out here.

I will concede knowing how the raid encounter works and communicating what needs to be done and when, tracking, FTE/pulling, and camping raid ez-mode trinkets can all be considered work. I gaurantee not everyone in the raid is putting in that work. Yet every warm body there earns DKP to bid on loot that they essentially got for showing up and pressing some buttons.

But keep kidding yourself.

That raid force is the direct result of successful leadership and key members such as pullers, trackers etc. You don't get 100 warm bodies if you can't pull, don't track or have no idea what you're doing in general. The people who do put in a ton of time are rewarded by attracting more members and being able to gather huge force to down the mobs they do track and FTE. They reward those member with DKP and items. Are they all playing at 100%? No, but that's irrelevant. They've become a cog in the loot machine and that's all they need to do.

[enjchanter]

Generally trackers / FTE'ers get almost / up to 1 dragon kill per hour so warm bodies while getting paid for participation are required but are also paid accordingly. The people who carry the team have essentially a much higher pay grade and are rewarded appropriately.

Yes both are required, no it's not an even split of effort, but it's also not an even split of dkp. So arguement not valid

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That raid force is the direct result of successful leadership and key members such as pullers, trackers etc. You don't get 100 warm bodies if you can't pull, don't track or have no idea what you're doing in general. The people who do put in a ton of time are rewarded by attracting more members and being able to gather huge force to down the mobs they do track and FTE. They reward those member with DKP and items. Are they all playing at 100%? No, but that's irrelevant. They've become a cog in the loot machine and that's all they need to do.

Make up your mind: is this about being able to kill dragons, or is this about playing the non-EQ "competition" game of staring at walls and doing monotonous actions repeatedly for extended periods of time?

When you're arguing against rotations you like to pretend the "competition" game is all that matters. But when you're defending the 90% that don't compete, suddenly all that matters is the organizational effort of killing dragons.

It's ok, you can be swayed by my oh-so-persuasive arguments [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can admit that you agree, that EverQuest, that game we all love so much, is about killing dragons, and is not about "competing" in inane ways! Come to the dark light side Champion!

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That raid force is the direct result of successful leadership and key members such as pullers, trackers etc. You don't get 100 warm bodies if you can't pull, don't track or have no idea what you're doing in general. The people who do put in a ton of time are rewarded by attracting more members and being able to gather huge force to down the mobs they do track and FTE. They reward those member with DKP and items. Are they all playing at 100%? No, but that's irrelevant. They've become a cog in the loot machine and that's all they need to do.

Completely relevant.

We are told time and time again that if you don't put in (some neckbeard-defined ridiculous amount of "video game work") time/effort, you don't deserve loot.

Yet all of your self-admitted "cogs in the loot machine" are somehow deserving of loot, despite not putting in the aforementioned amount of time/effort. Again, they show up and push buttons.

One might easily show that the average player in a more casual guild actually puts more time/effort contributing to their guild's success than 50 or 60 of your cogs.

So the precept that "you put in the work, you deserve loot" fails at its most fundamental definition, and it becomes truly "i just get off on denying other people from pixels because i'm an e-bully."

Let's call it for what it is and stop trying to sugarcoat.

[Artaenc]

Originally Posted by Legday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most AM posters have it in their sig because why keep your Lambo in the garage where nobody can see it?

I would never deprive anyone from seeing my pride and joy that I see as a Lamborghini.

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[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Artaenc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would never deprive anyone from seeing my pride and joy that I see as a Lamborghini.

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Frankly, that's a majestic af car and I would treat that car with far more love and respect than for any of you elf nerds.

[destrozi]

How is the existence of later expansions / games at all relevant on a Velious time locked server?

We are in a Groundhog Day type of scenario where we retain knowledge but relive the same experiences. Later games are irrelevant, later expansions are irrelevant. People come here to experience that time locked nostalgia. That is the whole point of the server.

Loot is distributed on this server to the people that put in the most effort to acquire that loot -- EXACTLY like the snapshot of live this server replicates from 2001.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by destrozi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How is the existence of later expansions / games at all relevant on a Velious time locked server?

We are in a Groundhog Day type of scenario where we retain knowledge but relive the same experiences. Later games are irrelevant, later expansions are irrelevant. People come here to experience that time locked nostalgia. That is the whole point of the server.

Loot is distributed on this server to the people that put in the most effort to acquire that loot -- EXACTLY like the snapshot of live this server replicates from 2001.

300 people waiting at the Fear portal or the WL zone line in Kael or the zone in of ToV for a boss to pop/get pulled isn't really an accurate snapshot at all. At any given time there were one or two guilds on many servers that could even imagine trying that stuff, and the rest got their hands on it after the bigger guilds had moved on to the new expansion.

For severs with huge populations, there tended to be player agreement rotations so each uber guild got something instead of fighting and wiping and possibly getting nothing. So none of this is EXACTLY a snapshot of anything that happened in these zones on live during Velious.

Then again back then there was 24/7 volunteer guide service plus a paid GM for each server who would come make raid leaders roll for dragon kill rights or just despawn the damn thing if people were going full on neckbeard. Which brings us back again to the actual point of the Omni post, if we don't have sufficient staff here to enforce raid rules, shouldn't the rules be modified or in the extreme scenario just done away with?

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Says you, with no basis whatsoever. Somehow I think all the players that would get to see dragons for the first time on this server would disagree.

Except that the staff literally said this is why they would implement rotations.

The point is that relevant content is entirely subjective. You wouldn't like being told that you can only go to your favorite zone once every 6 weeks anymore than the raiders like the suggestion of only going to ToV once every 6 weeks. When you aren't raiding, this is the only reasonable comparison.

These classes of players you've thought up simply don't exist in significant numbers on this server. I'm not buying for one second that there's guilds full of appropriately geared wannabe raiders that just refuse to contest in the current system and are desperately waiting around for the staff to save them. People pushing for rotations are people who have determined on their own that they can't be successful in the current system and they've made the decision to not get involved.

I'm not arguing against different rule sets for raid mobs, I dunno where you got that from. I'm saying that we can take this "fairness" mantra to every level of the game. And the only time people will reject it is when it negatively impacts them. idk what you usually do in game, but I can bet you would not be throwing a party if the rules meant you get to do that much less often.

Player made agreements that the staff has agreed to enforce are not the same thing as the staff forcing a rule set or rotation.

Every player has a different perspective, different goals and different play styles. It isn't unreasonable to look at the game and player base as a whole to find equivalencies. I'm not going to stick to your "three kinds of players" because that's just not the reality of the server.