Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Rooj]

No one hates Enchanters.

No one hates Enchanters charming.

No one is saying remove charm from the game.

What people are saying is that it's more than just overpowered, that it has a massive impact on the game, grouping, raiding, and the economy/looting by leaps and bounds further than pretty much anything else in the game. And when I say massive, I am talking about 1 Enchanter equating to several+ members' DPS in a group.

Charming is a neat gameplay feature that you don't see too much of in modern MMOs, and I think every player appreciates the playstyle being a part of Everquest. Not a single person here wants to see it removed, players just want to see its effect reduced to a state that feels in-line with Classic Everquest and Classic Feel, AKA the P99 Staff's vision.

Funny story, just read that apparently in Omens of War charm was changed so that mobs only did around 50% of their damage and couldn't be hasted, which is hilariously pretty much exactly what my suggestion for fixing it was going to be. Responses to the news basically amounted up to "too long overdue," which was too true. Looks like it didn't stop people from charming, of course! (because that's how stupidly broken it is)

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

players just want to see its effect reduced to a state that feels in-line with Classic Everquest and Classic Feel, AKA the P99 Staff's vision.

Ah yes. How could I be so mistaken about all of this. When nilbog says he wants to make classic changes to recreate classic eq, what he obviously must have actually meant was he'll make unclassic changes to recreate a different game that feels kinda similar to what classic eq felt like to some people.

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What people are saying is that it's more than just overpowered, that it has a massive impact on the game, grouping, raiding, and the economy/looting by leaps and bounds further than pretty much anything else in the game. And when I say massive, I am talking about 1 Enchanter equating to several+ members' DPS in a group.

Exactly. We aren't talking about Chanters just leading a group in DPS. They are out damaging entire groups, just about, in many situations. No one expects perfect class balance. That's not what people are talking about.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by jacob54311 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. We aren't talking about Chanters just leading a group in DPS. They are out damaging entire groups, just about, in many situations. No one expects perfect class balance. That's not what people are talking about.

Okay so what we’re hearing is you guys have now reverted to simply saying a class needs to be nerfed in a non classic manner because you have no evidence that charm isn’t otherwise accurate to what it was on live.

I think we can move this to resolved since we know they aren’t just gonna randomly nerf a class because you’re whining

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay so what we’re hearing is you guys have now reverted to simply saying a class needs to be nerfed in a non classic manner because you have no evidence that charm isn’t otherwise accurate to what it was on live.

I think we can move this to resolved since we know they aren’t just gonna randomly nerf a class because you’re whining

I'd say we need to look very closely at the evidence. This is having a big effect on how the game is being played.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by jacob54311 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd say we need to look very closely at the evidence. This is having a big effect on how the game is being played.

I'm sure the staff did look closely at evidence when they created charm and probably more than once in the years since. It's not like people haven't had YEARS to bring this matter up and figure it out already, right? This isn't the first time people got annoyed at charm being stupidly powerful.

Plus the most recent evidence posted in this thread, which is also the only data that I recall seeing in here, supports that p99 charm durations are probably about right.

The issue is that the people who want charm nerfed want charm nerfed regardless of whether it was actually this powerful in classic. They aren't interested in sticking to the classic mechanic, despite that being the repeatedly-stated goal of the staff and p1999, unless the classic mechanic is coincidentally the way they want it to be. So they just keep arguing in circles, trying to get what they want by being loud instead of being correct.

[kul69]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue is that the people who want charm nerfed want charm nerfed regardless of whether it was actually this powerful in classic. They aren't interested in sticking to the classic mechanic, despite that being the repeatedly-stated goal of the staff and p1999, unless the classic mechanic is coincidentally the way they want it to be. So they just keep arguing in circles, trying to get what they want by being loud instead of being correct.

It's already clear it isn't classic. I've brought up channeling many times already. That is also clearly broken and undeniably unclassic and it directly relates to Charm being overpowered here and unclassic.

Regardless of that, I want consistency. Either we recreate classic or we modify it to balance the game. The game is already being balanced by the devs. I didn't advocate for nerfing Necro pets or not letting Rogues steal items from player corpses or all the rest of the classic stuff that isn't included here. If that is the path the devs have already chosen then Enchanter clearly needs to be on the list for an adjustment.

People try to say oh then we should nerf ports or whatever stupid analogy they're right to make. No, Enchanter is clearly impacting the game way too much and in a negative way. The player counts support it. Everyone's experience playing support it. It's obvious. Enchanter has become the top meta on P99 and no it was never like this in classic. You just said "charm durations" being the same mean this isn't an issue. The problem with charm goes way beyond duration. You're trying to isolate the discussion to a single aspect of charm.

Fixing experience so groups lose if pet out damages them is needed to balance Charm among other things like fixing channeling.

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah yes. How could I be so mistaken about all of this. When nilbog says he wants to make classic changes to recreate classic eq, what he obviously must have actually meant was he'll make unclassic changes to recreate a different game that feels kinda similar to what classic eq felt like to some people.

I'm pretty sure you're not new here.

Over the past 10 years the staff has said AND DONE unclassic changes to fix things to be more in line with Classic Feel over Classic Mechanics. Not sure what you're getting at here.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's already clear it isn't classic. I've brought up channeling many times already. That is also clearly broken and undeniably unclassic and it directly relates to Charm being overpowered here and unclassic.

Regardless of that, I want consistency. Either we recreate classic or we modify it to balance the game. The game is already being balanced by the devs. I didn't advocate for nerfing Necro pets or not letting Rogues steal items from player corpses or all the rest of the classic stuff that isn't included here. If that is the path the devs have already chosen then Enchanter clearly needs to be on the list for an adjustment.

People try to say oh then we should nerf ports or whatever stupid analogy they're right to make. No, Enchanter is clearly impacting the game way too much and in a negative way. The player counts support it. Everyone's experience playing support it. It's obvious. Enchanter has become the top meta on P99 and no it was never like this in classic. You just said "charm durations" being the same mean this isn't an issue. The problem with charm goes way beyond duration. You're trying to isolate the discussion to a single aspect of charm.

Fixing experience so groups lose if pet out damages them is needed to balance Charm among other things like fixing channeling.

“Something something stuff that’s not gonna happen”

Thanks for your contribution. I think we’ve beat a dead horse multiple times here and no need to do so further

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Plus the most recent evidence posted in this thread, which is also the only data that I recall seeing in here, supports that p99 charm durations are probably about right.

I've seen anecdotal evidence from both sides in the thread. I'm not seeing this clear cut evidence that favors the pro status quo crowd. No one seems to have access to formulas or anything like hard data from the old days.

What the status quo crowd do have in their favor is that the P99 team has decided that this is how it should be for the time being at least. It's up to the players who want a change to make a convincing case for that change and conflicting stories from old forums doesn't cut it, I give you that.

However, if there's some gray area in the P99 team's data when it comes to charm, and they were just working with best guesses, then I think a decent case could be made that chanters could be toned down just a little bit, based on what's going on in game. That's assuming that they didn't have any hard numbers either and were just doing their best based on memories of how the game was played back then.

I have no idea if that gray area exists. They don't really get into details about the more technical stuff that goes on under the surface, WHICH I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. If they went into depth with their thinking behind every decision they made, it'd just stir up more debate. They do this for fun, so not wanting to get into that kind of thing with the player base makes sense.

Ultimately, it's up to them, obviously. If they keep everything the same, I'll continue to play and just shake my head and sigh when I see a chanter out damaging a full group. Just like I did during the POP era. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]