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  #21  
Old 04-06-2019, 07:47 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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P.S. If "most ot the server doesn't want rotations", why have we had a very successful one for years in Sky?
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  #22  
Old 04-06-2019, 07:48 PM
Heebs13 Heebs13 is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Did you do a survey or something? You're just revealing your own ignorance by assuming the whole server wants what Aftermath wants (or what RnF wants, or even what the forums want).



You do understand that just because you put "You do understand" in front of something that doesn't make it true? Rotations would mean no more "competition", and that "competition" is the root of all petitions. Once the rotations were in place they would require virtually no GM effort whatsoever.

And, as I have mentioned before, they could require even less effort if the staff made the players police themselves. For instance, the guild that currently has ToV for the week could be responsible for observing whatever "gatekeeper" mob is needed to let a new guild join the rotation.

And finally I'll remind you that I've been asking how someone so smart could fail to come up with even a single viable alternative to the current system. And you keep failing to suggest even one.

Either the current system is perfect ([You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]), or you're an idiot (and again, I don't think you are), or ... you're refusing to admit that there are plenty of viable alternatives, but you don't like them because they would mean Aftermath has to share more of their pixels with others.
He DID suggest a viable alternative - root the raid mobs.
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Originally Posted by Daldaen View Post
P99ers do a lot of things well. Handling surprise adds / splitting up focus is not one of them. Mostly because the classes that do that the best (SK/Paladins) are generally trashed and considered useless, and because pulls are considered failures if a dragons doesn't appear at the zone line solo.
  #23  
Old 04-06-2019, 07:51 PM
Nexii Nexii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
P.S. If "most ot the server doesn't want rotations", why have we had a very successful one for years in Sky?
Because no one cares enough about Sky to complain. Very different situation with TOV
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  #24  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:00 PM
Heebs13 Heebs13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pookieson [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I think the primary problem with changing the system is that everyone would actually get phat lewts since its easily obtainable with a 90+ man raid force if you had instances, rotations, etc. it would just be more people getting loot, not that anybody would actually struggle with clearing through and killing content.

If everyone got phat lewts, and there is no content added to the game ever presumably, than your change would result in a circle jerk of phat lewts to a bitter end of stagnation as everyone quickly achieved end game. In AMs defense, it truly would be the end of any novelty in being end game geared.

The only real benefit i see to rotations or instancing or rooting mobs is that we could actually raid again and do something more than look at your corner. Currently the only real skill happening in game is FTE and pullers(mostly pullers). The rest of us just sit there and watch netflix waiting. Thats not what raiding in everquest ever was. That still wouldnt solve the stagnation problem, though, and in fact would probably speed it up on an already inevitable track.

tl:dr If the devs are truly no longer interested adding content, thats pretty much all that needs to be said right?
Pretty much nail on head here.

The way things are right now, the first guild to check the following 3 boxes gets the mob:
  1. Did you get FTE?
  2. Did you get the mob clean into camp?
  3. Is it a time of day where enough of your guild was able to log in to kill the mob?

If you had rotations, you can remove boxes 1 and 3 off of this list. Your guild's turn would come up, you'd zone into ToV at the time of your choosing, and then 90% of your raid force would sit there staring at a wall for hours while your pullers brought the bosses in one at a time. And then for 9 weeks you just wouldn't raid. ISN'T THAT FUN?!

If, instead, we rooted the raid bosses and/or made them summon at 100%, you would be racing against other guilds and the success of your raid would depend on things like your raid's ability to kill trash faster, or your ability to handle a couple of adds, or your ability to rez the dead quickly and continue moving, or your ability to keep the healers from going OOM, you know, PLAYING THE ACTUAL GAME. Not only that, but because you A) have to wait for the boss to spawn to start clearing and B) can't engage two bosses at once, one guild, let's call them Before English, couldn't monopolize all the content because while they're busy clearing to one boss, another guild could be clearing to another boss, and so on and so forth.

It is crazy to me that we are still arguing about rotations when so many people have come out and said they would hate them, and not about rooting raid bosses when I have yet to really hear any solid arguments against it.
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Originally Posted by Daldaen View Post
P99ers do a lot of things well. Handling surprise adds / splitting up focus is not one of them. Mostly because the classes that do that the best (SK/Paladins) are generally trashed and considered useless, and because pulls are considered failures if a dragons doesn't appear at the zone line solo.
  #25  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:00 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookieson [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I think the primary problem with changing the system is that everyone would actually get phat lewts since its easily obtainable with a 90+ man raid force if you had instances, rotations, etc. it would just be more people getting loot, not that anybody would actually struggle with clearing through and killing content.

If everyone got phat lewts, and there is no content added to the game ever presumably, than your change would result in a circle jerk of phat lewts to a bitter end of stagnation as everyone quickly achieved end game. In AMs defense, it truly would be the end of any novelty in being end game geared.

The only real benefit i see to rotations or instancing or rooting mobs is that we could actually raid again and do something more than look at your corner. Currently the only real skill happening in game is FTE and pullers(mostly pullers). The rest of us just sit there and watch netflix waiting. Thats not what raiding in everquest ever was. That still wouldnt solve the stagnation problem, though, and in fact would probably speed it up on an already inevitable track.

tl:dr If the devs are truly no longer interested adding content, thats pretty much all that needs to be said right?
This is one of my chief frustrations with trying to have this conversation: people (sometimes willfully, sometimes not) misunderstand, and jump to insane conclusions. Absolutely nothing about this is true:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookieson [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
everyone would actually get phat lewts since its easily obtainable with a 90+ man raid force if you had instances, rotations, etc. it would just be more people getting loot, not that anybody would actually struggle with clearing through and killing content.
No, it's not easy to get a 90+ man force! It's incredibly difficult, and there's a reason we only have one on the server!

Plus, even with rotations it's absolutely not true that everyone would be getting loot. Rotations don't magically make more dragons and pixels: all they do is change the distribution. Instead of (say) 80% of Dragon X's loot going to guild A, and 10% to guilds B and C, 10% would go to each of guilds A-J ... but still, only IF they can even kill Dragon X.

Which leads me to the most important point: the entire point of the game we're all supposed to be playing is that it's a challenge to organize a group of people to kill a dragon. The top guilds regularly taunt each other for screwing up and wiping to "easy" dragons with a hundred people. The actual challenge of the game itself has to be overcome and that is not easy.

So let's talk about the reality, not fantasy (ironic I know). If rotations happened everyone would not be walking around in BiS gear. Every player on the server would not be checking Yelinak off their bucket list. Only the guilds big enough (or in big enough alliances) and capable enough at actually slaying dragons would have some few members with epic dragon loot. But those dragon loots, and the hours of raid experience in killing those dragons, would be spread out (yes, shared!) between a much larger number of guilds and players.
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  #26  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:10 PM
Nexii Nexii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Did you do a survey or something? You're just revealing your own ignorance by assuming the whole server wants what Aftermath wants (or what RnF wants, or even what the forums want).
No, it's based on that AG and Core didn't want a rotation either when it was posted by Braknar. Which is really the majority of guilds that care to try to compete. BG/PS I'm not sure on. But I think the sentiment there is that they just want to be able to viably go for a few targets a week. The other guilds, well honestly I don't think they care too much about top end bosses. They're content mostly just doing content like HoT, West ToV, Kael arena, plate house, north flurries, etc.
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  #27  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:10 PM
Vallaen Vallaen is offline
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AM, AG and Core/BG can pull together a good size force.

I am sorry Anonymous isn't able to field a raid force to compare or chooses to not even try.
  #28  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:10 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Ultimately I reject the whole "the game itself doesn't matter" mentality. We are here to play game, that's the entire point. And unless I'm mistaken the purpose of the whoie project is to enable just that: lots of people getting together to play a fun old game.

Rotations enable far more people to play the game: they let P99 do what it does better. And you know what having them, for one zone, would cost? Far, far less headaches for the staff and the "competitors' on this server having to "compete" PvE style ... like people did back on live.
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  #29  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:11 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by Vallaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I am sorry Anonymous isn't able to field a raid force to compare or chooses to not even try.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Anonymous and everything to do with my opinion, personally, as a player of this server for about five years now.
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  #30  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:12 PM
Heebs13 Heebs13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
This is one of my chief frustrations with trying to have this conversation: people (sometimes willfully, sometimes not) misunderstand, and jump to insane conclusions. Absolutely nothing about this is true:



No, it's not easy to get a 90+ man force! It's incredibly difficult, and there's a reason we only have one on the server!

Plus, even with rotations it's absolutely not true that everyone would be getting loot. Rotations don't magically make more dragons and pixels: all they do is change the distribution. Instead of (say) 80% of Dragon X's loot going to guild A, and 10% to guilds B and C, 10% would go to each of guilds A-J ... but still, only IF they can even kill Dragon X.

Which leads me to the most important point: the entire point of the game we're all supposed to be playing is that it's a challenge to organize a group of people to kill a dragon. The top guilds regularly taunt each other for screwing up and wiping to "easy" dragons with a hundred people. The actual challenge of the game itself has to be overcome and that is not easy.

So let's talk about the reality, not fantasy (ironic I know). If rotations happened everyone would not be walking around in BiS gear. Every player on the server would not be checking Yelinak off their bucket list. Only the guilds big enough (or in big enough alliances) and capable enough at actually slaying dragons would have some few members with epic dragon loot. But those dragon loots, and the hours of raid experience in killing those dragons, would be spread out (yes, shared!) between a much larger number of guilds and players.
Loramin I'm sorry bud but you're just wrong on this one. There's really nothing all that difficult about killing 90% of the top bosses in P99. You do not need 90 people to kill a dragon - most of them can be killed with 20 to 30 people and are killed with that many people every single week on red. Outside of Vyemm, AoW, Ring War, and Tunare, you can kill pretty much every boss on this server with 35 people. The only difficult part that top guilds screw up is getting the mobs solo into camp before the other guild does. If you had a rotation that wouldn't even be a thing - you would just bring the mob into camp at your leisure and kill it. Your guild might get a big hurrah the very first time you do it because it's the very first time you did it, but every dragon after that is going to get more and more boring. Everquest Scars of Velious did NOT master in 2001 what makes MMO raiding fun. It was novel at the time but it's boring and grueling and what we have now is an even more bastardized version of it. You might think you want what you're asking for, but you really don't.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daldaen View Post
P99ers do a lot of things well. Handling surprise adds / splitting up focus is not one of them. Mostly because the classes that do that the best (SK/Paladins) are generally trashed and considered useless, and because pulls are considered failures if a dragons doesn't appear at the zone line solo.
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