Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[Naethyn]

Focus sta plz

(the rest doesn't really matter)

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Under your hypothetical where the first Slow is guaranteed to be resisted, the Troll gets the bad end of the deal. The Troll starts casting Turgurs the first time and gets interrupted. The second Turgurs gets resisted. The third Turgurs lands.

Not sure if you are stupid or just being obtuse because you are losing the argument here, but neither wears well.

I presented 2 hypotheticals that could reasonably occur following an ogre's successful bash/stun avoidance as being a significantly detrimental instead of beneficial, especially so if talking about a very high end encounter like a dragon solo attempt. One of those didn't even involve a spell resist, by the way.

Do address the hypotheticals and not pretend they are something different than I clearly described them as.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure if you are stupid or just being obtuse because you are losing the argument here, but neither wears well.

I presented 2 hypotheticals that could reasonably occur following an ogre's successful bash/stun avoidance as being a significantly detrimental instead of beneficial, especially so if talking about a very high end encounter like a dragon solo attempt. One of those didn't even involve a spell resist, by the way.

Do address the hypotheticals and not pretend they are something different than I clearly described them as.

Insulting people isn't a valid argument, and you didn't read my previous post correctly if you think this. Here are your hypotheticals, you posted them, not me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Non-ogre starts casting slow, gets stunned, this spell would have been resisted even if cast

We place an Ogre in same position who gets interrupted anyway.

We place a a different Ogre in same position but slow is resisted this time.

The non-ogre could have theoretically saved 250 mana and may in fact land the next slow spell before the ogre can, saving even more hp/mana because the stun duration could have been shorter than the completed cast time.

Your idea of "this spell would have been resisted even if cast" doesn't make sense. Resistances only occur when the spell LANDS. Getting interrupted doesn't save you a resistance check, or roll you a new one. The resistance check hasn't happened yet. That is why you haven't "saved 250 mana" by getting interrupted. In your hypothetical situation where the first spell is always resisted, the non-ogre would cast Turgurs which would be interrupted. The non-ogre would cast Turgurs as second time, which would be resisted. The non-ogre would cast Turgurs a third time, and land it. This is what I said in the previous post. The non-ogre loses here, because they have to wait for the stun to finish, on top of having to cast the spell twice more anyway.

Your second situation, where the Ogre gets interrupted, the Ogre would lose time yes. I never claimed otherwise. I even said they would lose in my previous post in this situation lol. The Ogre would cast Turgurs for it's full cast time, get interrupted, then have to cast Turgurs a second time, and that one gets resisted. The ogre would cast Turgurs a third time to land the spell. You don't spend mana on an interrupted spell, so the non-ogre hasn't "saved 250 mana" in this situation either. At best, the non-ogre has saved 1.5 seconds over the Ogre, assuming the bash occurred at the beginning of the cast. What you fail to mention is the non-ogre would lose up to 1.5 seconds if the bash occurs at the end of the cast. This second situation is a draw in the end when comparing Ogres and non-ogres. Sometimes Ogres win, sometimes non-ogres win. But as I said in the previous post, ALL races have the problem of getting bashed with an interrupt component, but no stun component. Both Ogres and non-ogres will waste time trying to finish casting a spell that has already been interrupted. There is no way to know until the cast bar finishes.

In the third situation, the Ogre wins, as I mentioned in my previous post. The Ogre casts Turgurs the first time and gets resisted. He casts Turgurs a second time and it lands. The Ogre has saved up to 4.5 seconds of unslowed damage because he got the first spell off, saw it was resisted, and immediately started casting Turgurs as second time.

EDIT: your language of "put x race in the same position" implies the spell would have been resisted the first time in all three situations. This is because the "same position" is going off of the first situation, where the spell would have been resisted. If that is not what you intended, your writing was simply too vague. Based on how you wrote your post, all three situations are resting on your faulty assumption that getting interrupted would save 250 mana or a resistance check.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Insulting people isn't a valid argument, and you didn't read my previous post correctly if you think this. Here are your hypotheticals, you posted them, not me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They aren't insults. They are observations of someone with an apparent inability to understand what hypothetical means.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your idea of "this spell would have been resisted even if cast" doesn't make sense.

Again, because you apparently don't know what hypothetical means. It doesn't have to be "would be resisted" you can skip right to IS RESISTED. Once the spell is resisted the ogre now spent 3 seconds casting, lost 250 mana, and has to manage a 6 second cooldown on their best slow.

The point is that in there is a range of potential outcomes even after a successful stun resist. You have no certainty what is going to come of it, and a very real chance of a negative outcome because of it if it involves an offensive spell like slow, especially when talking about high end stuff like dragons who have high resist rates.

More broadly the point is there is such a massive soup of variables going on in these encounters that the potential for a brief stun to change the outcome of the fight for a shaman is virtually zero.

[rabids]

I also have a hyopthetical situation that shows why orges are worse than trolls.

Imagine if orgres always gets resists and trolls never gets resists. In that case the troll is better then the orge!!!!

Eat it Deathssilkymist! You are stupid and dont understnad hypotheticals! Troll s>>> ogres! Who would want to play a class that always resists anyway? Thats stupid. Stupid ogres.

/Irony off.

I like trolls best (I will always love my snare clicky and I will never get the snare spear.), but I take my hat off for you Deathssilkymist for always focussing on the discussion even when others is being unreasonable og rude.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I also have a hyopthetical situation that shows why orges are worse than trolls.

Imagine if orgres always gets resists and trolls never gets resists. In that case the troll is better then the orge!!!!

Eat it Deathssilkymist! You are stupid and dont understnad hypotheticals! Troll s>>> ogres! Who would want to play a class that always resists anyway? Thats stupid. Stupid ogres.

/Irony off.

I like trolls best (I will always love my snare clicky and I will never get the snare spear.), but I take my hat off for you Deathssilkymist for always focussing on the discussion even when others is being unreasonable og rude.

Hrmm. An account that hasn't been used in over half a year but just shows up for some petty comment in a largely pointless shaman thread. Seems legit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They aren't insults. They are observations of someone with an apparent inability to understand what hypothetical means.




Again, because you apparently don't know what hypothetical means. It doesn't have to be "would be resisted" you can skip right to IS RESISTED. Once the spell is resisted the ogre now spent 3 seconds casting, lost 250 mana, and has to manage a 6 second cooldown on their best slow.

The point is that in there is a range of potential outcomes even after a successful stun resist. You have no certainty what is going to come of it, and a very real chance of a negative outcome because of it if it involves an offensive spell like slow, especially when talking about high end stuff like dragons who have high resist rates.

More broadly the point is there is such a massive soup of variables going on in these encounters that the potential for a brief stun to change the outcome of the fight for a shaman is virtually zero.

Calling someone stupid is an insult, and the only person who doesn't understand hypotheticals is yourself[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A hypothetical situation needs to be possible, or it is useless. Your idea that getting interrupted allows you to re-roll a resistance check is not correct, and therefore it is an irrelevant hypothetical. Resistance checks only happen when a spell lands.

Of course there is no way to know what will happen. Has anyone in this thread said otherwise? FSI allows you to work with unknown situations easier than a constant, low yield regeneration, which is the real point when comparing FSI with Troll regeneration.

Here is what you do not understand about your OWN hypothetical: If the spell would have been resisted for the Ogre, it would have been resisted for the troll too. Your hypothetical is saying the first slow landed by the caster IS RESISTED. It doesn't matter if the Troll was interrupted before. The first Turgurs that lands will be resisted in this scenario. You somehow think the interrupted Troll will land their first Turgurs, while the Ogre's first Turgurs will be resisted. Those are TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. You cannot compare two different scenarios, and claim they are the same.
.
Here is what will happen in your scenario, if you actually use the same exact scenario for both races:

The Ogre will cast his first Turgurs. He doesn't get stunned, but the spell gets resisted. This is the FIRST resistance check. The Ogre will need to cast Turgurs again. Total cast time: 6 seconds to land the first Slow.

The Troll gets stunned on their first Turgurs cast. The second Turgurs cast, which lands, will get resisted. This is the FIRST resistance check. The Troll will need to cast Turgurs again. Total cast time: 7.5 seconds to 10.5 seconds, depending on when the stun lands during the casting time.

You are correct that a bash with a stun component AND an interrupt component will cause the Ogre to lose time because the Ogre has to wait until the cast time finishes to see that the spell is interrupted. However, the Ogre will only lose time if the bash occurs near the beginning of the spell cast. Trolls will actually lose time if the bash happens near the end of the cast time. This is because you were casting for 2.5 seconds, and then get stunned for 1.5 seconds. This is a waste of 4 seconds, instead of 3 seconds. This is why this kind of situation is a draw for Ogres and Trolls. Who wins simply depends on when the bash hits.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I also have a hyopthetical situation that shows why orges are worse than trolls.

Imagine if orgres always gets resists and trolls never gets resists. In that case the troll is better then the orge!!!!

Eat it Deathssilkymist! You are stupid and dont understnad hypotheticals! Troll s>>> ogres! Who would want to play a class that always resists anyway? Thats stupid. Stupid ogres.

/Irony off.

I like trolls best (I will always love my snare clicky and I will never get the snare spear.), but I take my hat off for you Deathssilkymist for always focussing on the discussion even when others is being unreasonable og rude.

Thanks! I try to keep this stuff civil, and with facts. The funny thing is, Trolls are also my favorite race in the game. My first live toon was a Troll Warrior, and my 56 Shadowknight is a Troll. I think Male Trolls have the best model and animations.

But I will not use my personal bias to claim Trolls are better. If Ogres are better, I will still say so, and still love playing my Troll Shadowknight.

[DMN]

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[rabids]

Hrmm. An account that hasn't been used in over half a year but just shows up for some petty comment in a largely pointless shaman thread. Seems legit.

Good argument there☺ When I was active last and why that is a long time ago is relevant how?

I just think it is very funny that you make up a weird situation about who resists what when and use it as proof. And then insist that Deatssilkymist doesnt understand how hypotheticals work when he is trying to take you seriously🙂

I can agree with you though, in this hypothetical situation where the orge always resist the first cast and the troll only gets a stun instead of a resist, the troll is better. Too bad thats not how it works in the actual game, making it an absurd agrument😁 Fun stuff, keep it up👍