Thoughts on end game raiding

[foxchris509]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about alliances?

Originally Posted by TripleLegit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another good question. If alliances are allowed nothing will change, people will just creat three guilds to disguise one big guild.

Yeah I agree that is a hard one to answer, I don't think it would be possible with rules like this.

[foxchris509]

Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Filed under not classic

Originally Posted by Sacer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty much, I mean it's obvious having a raid size cap is healthy for the raid scene, literaly every other MMO do it, but it's not classic EQ.

Haha I was waiting for this comment believe me.

[Foxplay]

#Rootthedragons

Bet you there would be a whole lot less raiders if they had to work for their pixels and not answer a batphone, log on for 10min and bank dkp

[Polixa]

Well there are Classic Mechanics and there is Classic Experience. The two are not necessarily compatible.

To give a classic experience to players (i.e. ability to consume content) GMs might need to modify the classic mechanics.

[zodium]

Originally Posted by zodium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... people who aren't on board with rules they have to live under tend to spend their time devising ways to circumvent them rather than how to uphold them.

The sooner we start approaching raid rules design from "what do players want and how do we design a raid cycle with space for those preferences" rather than "these player preferences are counter to The Vision and must be constrained in ways that definitely won't have massive unforeseen consequences," the sooner we'll have working rules.

[Brocode]

You dont deserve to be at NFL just because you have a team, you have to earn it, rise and compete, either you like the way it is right now or not. Staff has changed in many different ways the raid scene, and the most fair so far been a mix(actual system), and def will still mutate soon.

AM didnt start at the top, as matter of fact struggled 2-3 years ago to rise to the top, would lose a lot of mobs to the competitors, but slowly it reached where it is now.

Blood Core and AG are potential next competitors to AM. Anyone has potential to compete, but no one want to put in the same effort. Thats why many guilds left server for a softcore raid enviroment (TLP servers)

Competition is def fun, not always, but when you win and wasnt easy, its super fun. Keep it up!

[zodium]

Originally Posted by Brocode [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You dont deserve to be at NFL just because you have a team, you have to earn it, rise and compete, either you like the way it is right now or not. Staff has changed in many different ways the raid scene, and the most fair so far been a mix(actual system), and def will still mutate soon.

AM didnt start at the top, as matter of fact struggled 2-3 years ago to rise to the top, would lose a lot of mobs to the competitors, but slowly it reached where it is now.

Blood Core and AG are potential next competitors to AM. Anyone has potential to compete, but no one want to put in the same effort. Thats why many guilds left server for a softcore raid enviroment (TLP servers)

Competition is def fun, not always, but when you win and wasnt easy, its super fun. Keep it up!

As someone who has the privilege of actually competing, this idea that raiding is some open competition is silly on its face. Take two guilds you put on the same level, Core and BG. Do we have a level playing ground? Frankly, no. I don't mean to say BG aren't perfectly good players, just that there are a number of structural advantages working against them in a hypothetical competition against Core.

Right off the bat, Core has a vast array of characters developed over the course of a decade, many sporting so much end game Velious gear that we simply do not care for loot. We have ready access to a treasure trove of powerful clickies of which maybe 1-2 are generated per week on a serverwide basis, as well as items that flat out no longer drop. Wanna try to out-mobilize us without lockets? Good luck.

Item advantage not doing it for you? "Wipe it clean!" you say? Sorry pal. Available practice time correlates almost 1:1 with current performance, which in other words means you need to be on the winning team to get regular opportunities to improve in the first place. Core, for example, has an amount of accumulated experience with TOV dragons which at any realistic rate of practice time for BG could not be matched within the lifetime of P99. Wipe it clean all you like. You can't wipe what's in our minds. And the cycle would play out again, and again, and again, until we get real. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are no one-and-done, "let's just do this" solutions. No perfect plug-and-play ruleset. First, we need to stop digging up, and recognize that different people play P99 with different movations. If we want the rules to work, we need people to work for the rules, not against them. To do that, we need to account for those motivations. Then, the raid rules design process itself, not simply the rules as such, need a fundamental redesign away from the current model and towards one that starts from those motivations. And finally, it will take time, trial and error to actually build a model that works.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Brocode [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You dont deserve to be at NFL just because you have a team, you have to earn it, rise and compete, either you like the way it is right now or not. Staff has changed in many different ways the raid scene, and the most fair so far been a mix(actual system), and def will still mutate soon.

AM didnt start at the top, as matter of fact struggled 2-3 years ago to rise to the top, would lose a lot of mobs to the competitors, but slowly it reached where it is now.

Blood Core and AG are potential next competitors to AM. Anyone has potential to compete, but no one want to put in the same effort. Thats why many guilds left server for a softcore raid enviroment (TLP servers)

Competition is def fun, not always, but when you win and wasnt easy, its super fun. Keep it up!

Mate, this is an online fantasy role play game. It's about pretending to be great heroes with your friends, saving the world from formidable monsters. It's not NFL. No one does this professionally. There is no money on the line. Not even a monthly fee.

[Brocode]

@Zodium well said, thats what i meant as you dont get to be at the top instantly, gotta prepare to compete, some alot more than others. I am all in to make the raid scene motivator better for all levels, just wish that would adapt for our current player base, hell i d love the challenges to be even custom adapted and not just be a trivial kill.

@Jimjam Was just an example, as pixels equals the money if you prefer, people compete to win something, in NFL is titles and money, here is pixels.

[Terrel]

Originally Posted by Keza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I also disagree with guild competition being fun as well, but only because it's not quite competition. A competition implies a lot of things that EQ raids don't have. This is more like a bunch of greedy animals in a Walmart trampling each other on a black Friday sale. There's no real competition. We all know the state of it, there's no need to go into it, but not many people actually find this fun. They just do it for the pixels.

This. This. This.

This is the silent majority.

Competition? You can call it that all you want, and maybe a small part of it is actually about who had devised the cleverest way to mobilize a large force quickly. But that only applies to the current guilds who "compete".

In real life, what this looks like is that you have two groups of players. Group A, the "competitors", who are either unemployed, live alone, or don't have a good family situation. (Does that sound nasty? I don't mean it to be.)

Group B would love to kill dragons in NTOV, and, on rare occasions when Group A has been banned, have done so. But they work, they have families, and in the spirit of setting a good example for their children, they don't' get up and leave the dinner table because something sweet has just spawned.

On the rare occasions where things work out that a group B guild has the opportunity to mobilize for a nice spawn, and begins to gather a force, it's not at all unusual for a group A guild to jump them. (As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, group A is more practiced and better at mobilizing quickly.)

So let me repeat that. The group B guild, for which circumstances line up two or three times a year just right that they're able to even attempt an NTOV dragon, gets jumped by a group A guild that does NTOV dragons hundreds of times a year. You know what that is? Jackassery. Lack of courtesy. Disrespect. Greed.

Are we adults, or kids? Play nice, anyone?

Others have pointed out elsewhere that those who put in the most time should (and will) reap the most reward. (No welfare pixels!!) And you'll get no disagreement from me. But since the scenario above plays out that way so often, you know what the B guilds want? A shot. Once in a while! If the group A guilds were more courteous to the group B guilds on the rare occasions when they were able to mobilize for NTOV dragons, you'd have a lot fewer people calling for a rotation.

We don't need your welfare, group A. We just need your courtesy.