Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Polycaster]

Enchs in my guild weren't seen in groups in kunark because they were all solo charming shit, often imps in solb. As several have said, it wasn't that charm broke a lot, its that people didn't understand how to do it. I played an ench on blue and if you have low cha you get beat hard (couldn't charm well until my 30s due to no JCers at the start), if you don't rune yourself and/or time stuns perfectly you drain the healers mana. Charm still breaks a lot, the good enchs just learned how to mitigate it.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Why was Bard swarming nerfed on then? If Chardok was the problem we could make it so only BARD PBAEs have unlimited targets, yea?

[Ligma]

Both were just massive zone disruptions that the staff didn't want to deal with anymore

[Bardp1999]

Bards kiting all of OT is not classic so they put the brakes on it - PRAS

Chardok AoE trivialized the leveling process and, in my opinion, ruined the Blue server - PRAS

A really nice classic fix to me would be Necros can ONLY charm undead, Druids ONLY animal, Enchanters ONLY humanoids - PRAS

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by Bardp1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters ONLY humanoids - PRAS

That's a "classic" fix?

[bubur]

we passed into the full-on just throwing ideas out there phase by like page 30 in this thread

[Buellen]

just wow man this turned into nerf chanter charming no matter what ! Proof or not does not matter! STRING THEM UP!

Jesus

You know what Sony did nerf enchanters due to all the uproar from people just like you all who want them nerfed here on P1999. I just browsed some of the old forums for Verant guess who was the first class to be crucified by the masses of "haters" DRUIDS followed up by ENCHANTERS.

The Nerf DID NOT HAPPEN TILL 2003 very obviously beyond P1999 quoted mission and timelines.

For thoroughness ill post the nerf they implemented at that time here.

"[from EQ Castersrealm]

<em>These changes are currently on Test but with a patch scheduled for Thurs they may go live, so here's a heads-up so you can consider these changes and feedback your thoughts before it possibly goes live. First I'll list the changes I recognize and then briefly discuss how they've effected my game.

-Well known, the resist modifier of CoD is 0 now.

-The charmer will get 50% of the agro generated by the pet. It was first changed to 100% but that was determined to be too much.

-Charmed pets now take a percentage of the exp. It's apparently on a sliding scale, based on the total percentage of damage the pet does.


How this has effected me:

--Resist change
The resist change is low-moderate. With TD2 my charms are noticeably shorter in places where mobs are naturally MR. Tash before charm is mandatory. In pofire I bounced 4 cod's in a row trying to charm a spider w/o tash. Once tashed, I had maybe a 5-10% bounce rate on the same spiders, which is tolerable. In places where mobs aren't naturally MR, like tactics arena, I had normal charm durations but still tashed before charm every time.

This change is a little harsher on naturally MR mobs. Played in kael and I never had a charm last longer than 2-3 minutes on a lego I charmed in arena and several times had 3 breaks within one minute.

Overall this change has had little effect on me in groups, where we're usually xp'ing off low MR mobs and have a mage/sham who keeps malo up, and only a small effect on me solo. When I solo now I mez then tash the mob before charm where before I would typically just charm.


--Agro change
With 50% of the agro going to the ench, the ench in a group can still be the slower but now has to wait to send in pet. It's a balancing act now though because our pet can out-taunt the tank at any point during the fight. I frequently found myself sending pet at 75% and then having to back it off late in the fight as the mob would start to turn on me. (this is using an unhasted pet so we didn't lose exp)

If you are in melee range the mob is much more likely to turn on the ench, so sitting out of range helps. In another experience I did vindi with some friends. We typically do it small and use a charmed pet to take rampage. If I got within melee range I would take the rampage over the pet.

This change doesn't present a major issue for us. We can learn to control our agro. Something notable that I did experience while soloing was that if I got into a situation where I couldn't outdistance my target to root it off me, I used to run in a circle untill the pet taunted my target off me, but with this change the pet would kite on the mob till it was almost half dead before gaining agro.

--XP change.
This hurts low-dps/small groups some and the solo ench a lot. Solo kills in HoH and PoFire were getting me 3% aaxp per kill with pet doing all the damage (minus blue ceramic band damage). A group would be severly penalized for using a hasted pet. Using a non-hasted pet in a tactics arena group which had good damage without the pet the exp lost to the pet wasn't noticeable, but this was in a good dps group.

My conclusion:
Each of these changes are reasonable on their own. All three of these combined is overkill. Solo xp for an ench is now riskier due to pathing changes and more frequent charm breaks/resists. To reduce the xp they get on top of that is too much.

A grouping charmer has to learn to control their agro some, which is fair considering all other range classes have to as well.

The pet taking xp is a logical way to encourage using reasonable dps/non-hasted pets, but is artificial and hard to control. It isn't possible to tell when your pet is doing too much damage and you need to back it off or lose xp. I prefer the past change with the 1% slow keeping us from hasting pets so we don't get the mad 1k+ dps machines. Now we just don't get xp from them but are still allowed to use them.


Sagal Capoeria - Grandmaster (Retired)
Izmaill - Exiled Troll Luminary
Ayonae Ro</em>"

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We can talk about how OP Enchanters are or not all we want. The point is, they reflect what the class was on live. The goal of the server is to try and reflect how each class and mechanic was on live during the classic era. The point of the server is not to say "Wellllll achhhtually Enchanters were OP and they were never balanced but in my opinion they should have been so we should arbitrarily nerf them here because of that!"

If we want to make that the standard, then I guess we better open up like a million other things for peoples' personal opinions to be used to modify. For example, I think hybrids having snap aggro is cheesey and cheap and holding aggro as a tank should be more difficult, so nerf that please. What about Shamans and Canni; that's essentially a manastone-like ability and the devs stopped that from dropping and limited it to old world only, so Canni should either be removed or limited to old world only please. What about Rangers; AAs were implemented in later expansions to make them much better because the devs thought they were too weak from a balance perspective in the classic era, so add those changes to Rangers please since the standard is now what the devs did later on or what we think they would have done. What about Iksar regen and AC boost; back in the day there weren't nearly as many Iksars but sooo many people roll Iksar now to min/max for the relevant classes, so nerf Iksars please to create more of a "classic atmosphere."

It is now completely clear, considering the things that you have just compared Charm to, that you are either new to P99, oblivious to the effect of Charm, or have a personal agenda.

This has nothing to do with personal opinions, this is about facts. Facts like math. That this is a group centric game, and Enchanters DPS equates up to SEVERAL party members, making grouping a huge loss of EXP/hr for them. That the staff here is trying to create not only Classic Everquest but the Classic Feel, and have made changes in the past that change Classic Everquest into Classic Feel. The things they've changed had major impacts on the spirit of the game, just like Charm is right now. So no, I don't think this is about any personal stuff and is more about the community and game as a whole. I firmly believe a nerf to Charm fits in perfectly with the goal of the staff here.

The thing is that you could do something simple like reduce a charmed pet's damage by 50% and they'd still probably be doing over double the DPS of the highest DPS in the group. This is the nerf I've always thought could probably go through but I really want to see some parses first before making any suggestions. What I'm saying is that even with a 50% damage reduction, people would still Charm and it would still be extremely effective, and therefore doesn't go against the Classic Feel, Enchanter would still be by far the strongest class in the game.

[Ligma]

The Nerf DID NOT HAPPEN TILL 2003

And charm was still very OP after that. Sometime during GoD they changed it so charmed mobs have their damage scaled down. By that point charm pets were doing 2k dps and were required to get you through the 1 group ikkinz trials.

[Buellen]

Ok data and proof has been posted that this is how it was back live but no lets ignore that YEESH!

my Point is that the only nerf should be applied is the ones that existed in era! upto that nerf and the one i bolded (which i never heard off) i dont rem any and i have not found any other and i have looked.

This is the nerf i never heard of " I prefer the past change with the 1% slow keeping us from hasting pets so we don't get the mad 1k+ dps machines" if that was in era for p1999 then by all means apply it Devs!.


PS if there other nerfs to charm in era please feel free to educate me.