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  #31  
Old 10-07-2018, 01:38 PM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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  #32  
Old 10-10-2018, 09:27 PM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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I've gone over the what research I've put up and think I have a better understanding of this mechanic.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...neak-t507.html

OP was edited for the may 2002 patch which changed thrown weapons to not break sneak. However there is a lot of evidence pointing towards what I believe is the correct sneak pull mechanic in era but I'll bring that up later. Next up is whether it mattered if a mob was social.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...07.html#p17330
Quote:
Sneak pulling is an Odd one, I still haven't got it all down right, but here's my perception of what you can do with it.

Its main use appears to be when there are mobs that are Agro, close, but *NOT* social. If you can sneak in and nail one with a shuriken or get yourself inside the vision sector of one but not the others, then sneak back FAST out of the agro range of the second before you're hit and sneak is blown, you can pull just one of them fast and easy rather than the time and hassle of a feign pull. Of course this is easier for rangers, rogues as they have nice long range bows to use for this, but then if it messes up they can't just FD, so I know what I prefer!

Its claimed that sneak can be used as a minor harmony effect on *SOCIAL* mobs to reduce their add radius, but personally I haven't had much success with this at all. By far the best way to pull these is harmony if outside of course, or fd/chain, or the best way "be high enough level to only get one of them" .

Sneak is a core skill though, and extremely useful. However, I have noticed that some higher undead (karnors skeles etc...) *seem* unsneakable (360 degree agro) (unless you're a rogue of course).


Lythe

ps: more sneak pulling info needed please!
After that for a few pages in the thread that gets pretty much debunked as there is plenty of mention of using sneak to aggro pull social mobs. This mechanic may have changed between 2000 and 2001. I say this due to cross referencing to thesafehouse
https://thesafehouse.org/forums/foru...-sneak-pulling which was written in 2001.



https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...30.html#p17352

Quote:
I did finally get around to trying out the sneak ranged pulling stuff, once i got the range 100 summonable shruiken, it does work... kinda. I don't claim to have mastered by the time I finally through in the towel with EQ, but the idea does have merit with long ranged stuff, thanks for the link Andrew

Hugs and kisses to all my monkly friends, I hope the primer serves you long after the author i just a memory in the lands of EQ.

Autumn Dawnfire
"I am a monk, nothing more, nothing less."
Tigerwhite
"Tigerwhite burning bright"
OP tested out the throw, hit sneak, and back out of range of other mobs with some success. Mind you this was before the may 2002 patch.


https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...40.html#p17335

This was a copy paste from the safehouse hence the 10/30/00 date despite the post being from early 2002
Quote:
Zinj
Disciple
Posts: 161
(10/30/00 12:13:08 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del All Sneak Pulling - a 'guide' to how the rogues do it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sneak Pulling - a guide to how the rogues do it

Really ought to be titled, Aggro Range Pulling.

Here's another tidbit I pulled out of The Safehouse for rogues this morning. Since we also get the Sneak
skill, we have a possible fallback position if Verant royally screws up feign-pulling. The biggest problem for
us would be that our Sneak skill caps at 113, with a minor secondary that we can't use bows. This is a
preliminary for everyone to know there are alternatives (not pleasant ones granted). I have about three
times this material, but I'll have to winnow through it some more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sneak Pulling - a rough guide

Sneak Pull (v.), 1. The art of using a ranged weapon(ideally) to pull a single mob from a group of mobs
while sneaking. Melee weapons may be attempted by higher level rogues as their sneak speed increases.

How-to: Sneak into aggro range - tag the mob you want, sneak out before you are hit. The trick is, if you have a bunch of mobs with their backs to you, and one that is looking in your direction, you can sneak into that one mob's agro range and pull it out. The key is not to get hit (breaks sneak) before you back that mob out of agro range of the others.

Get SOWed! Not a requirement, but it makes a big difference in escaping aggro range of the other mobs before your sneak is busted.

Caveat: Pull non-caster mobs out of groups of casters. Aggro range for a caster = spell range and its
really hard to get out of this before he starts casting on you.

Best use for this I've found: this makes us into chain-pulling gods. Let a monk pull whatever he wants up
into a nice tidy FD pile a good distance from the group, target the one you want, bring it to the group.
Monk just stands up and re-FDs to keep the pile there while you whittle them down one by one until only
casters are left.

Wishful thinking: Verant's promised throwing weapons because the ones we have now just don't have the
range to do this well. So make a ranger happy - buy his nice bow; and then show him a real use for it =)
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...50.html#p17358


Quote:
SOLB, King Room (where targin spawns)

at 40 just walk by the room and you will aggro 2 or 3 mobs in there
at 45 sneak to the bottom of the ramp, throw a shuriken at the first spawn and bring back one (go ahead and try it with sneak off and you will aggro more than one)
at 46 sneak to the middle of the ramp (and you can single pull every mob with a shuriken, moving to the far right to gank the mob sitting on the throne)
at 47 sneak to the top of the ramp and single pull with shuriken
at 48 no sneak required just walk to middle of ramp, throw shuriken (the first two mobs will come in singles without needing to throw anything at them, I experimneted with 'hailing' them as well)

the Hole, front entrance mobs before drop down
I think i visited here at 48 the first time, the first static elemetal warrior you can see, there is another static one directly opposite of him that you can't see. with shattering hammers i walked to within range and threw it at the mob and aggroed both (the one i could not see). FD and waited till they both reset, then got up, sneaked to within range, and threw my hammer only got one, and you are still sneaking (at least your movement rate is sneak speed) until you get hit
At 52 when i went back, i could throw a hammer at the first mob without sneaking.

the Hole, first Rock Golem before drop down
As you face the Rock golem, to the right of him is a static crusader.

at 52, i could sneak range pull just the golem (he does not path thru the crusader) with a 150 range item (from the umberbulks in Echo caverns)
at 53, i could sneak range pull the roick golem with a shattering hammer

in both these instances if I was not sneaking when i got to the ranges i needed, I would aggro both.

sunol 54 monk of Xev
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...50.html#p17364

Quote:
okay ijusth, with sneak + thrown weapon pulling, there is no need to FD, like at all. It's a huge time saver, as you aren't waiting on FD to recycle for the split, basically you reduce the range at which mobs will respond you're attack on the one you're tagging, it does not completely eliminate it, you're level will effect the agro range ( as always ), but it will get reduced by use of sneak.

It used to be that using a thrown weapon broke sneak, and you have to rehit it really fast to get this method to work ( so you needed to be sneaking again by the time the weapon actually connected meaning you needed a weapon with a pretty good range ). With the changes so that throwing doesn't break sneak, that is no longer the case, makes this a LOT eaiser to use, even with reltively short range weaopns like a shattering hammer or normal throwing stars.

ID splitting is a whole other monkey, doesn't involve throwing in any way
Unsure if ID splitting works here or sneak reducing aggro radius. I recall you had to sneak through NToV door to not aggro mobs. If you didn't sneak you would definitely aggro a bunch but that was in 2016.

I believe that throwing a ranged item then immediately hitting sneak is the correct mechanic so long as the mobs are angled right.
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  #33  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:53 PM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...22.html#p19312

Quote:
10:46 AM - Mar 25, 2003 #3
That's a basic Sneak Pull. It relies on a change made about 18 months ago, whereby mobs had to be aware of you to pick up aggro from another (social) mob, and Sneak didn't drop when you attacked (only when you got hit). It works most of the time with mobs that can't see invis and don't do any weird pathing dancing when trying to get you; if they run very close to the other mob, it can still aggro the second.
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  #34  
Old 10-11-2018, 01:37 AM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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This is a good primer on pull mechanics from 2003 which matches the tests H ran on live.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...t533.html#p533

Quote:
Agro at Boarder Proxy Range
Quite often if you are barely in agro range of an NPC, but not others near it, only that one your in range of will agro. When you gain agro in this fashion, the assist agro range will be centered upon the puller. This is not always the case, but often, the agro check for the other NPC is never made. If you cast a spell, or throw a weapon, the assist radius will be centered on the NPC you attacked rather then you.

Proxy Pull
This trick can usually get you a single NPC without the need of FD. The trick is to get to the boarder of the NPCs agro range, but out of the agro range of other NPCs near by. Stand at the boarder range of one NPC and wait till it runs and attacks you. Don’t cast a spell or throw anything cause that will center the assist radius on the NPC you hit rather then you. Provided the NPCs are not very closely bunched, they will split. This pulling trick works extremely well in the planes.

Sneak Pulling
This trick can give you an added faction bonus. If you get some NPCs with their backs facing you, you may be able to pull them with the same chance of chain agro as you would get had you pulled non KoS mobs. Yes, there is a chance others will chain agro, but the odds are lowered, and the conditions for the NPCs to chain will be higher. In places where the chain agro mobs are a lower level then you, this could work well. If one mob is facing you, you can pull off a sneak and proxy pull which could very well lead to an amazing split.
An even older source got it half right so we can assume that the prox aggro mechanic remained unchanged.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...34.html#p17900

Quote:
LaotzuQigong
Posts 43
Registered Member
7:08 AM - May 18, 2001 #7
Some interesting points...

As to the passing of hate lists, this of course only applies to high greens/blues or mobs that would normally aggro you...

Also, your discussion of "social" mobs goes to another topic entirely. Mobs have two different aggro ranges, one for general aggro (IE, you walk too close for a period of time) and second a combat aggro range (IE, You're in a fight with a mob) that I refer to as a "call for help" radius. For example, Treah in Growth has a zone wide call for help radius with certain mobs (a really annoying feature if I may say).

Also, at the outer ranges of the aggro radius, aggro delay is not a set time, as opposed to a percentage probability over time. So you will find at the furthest reach of an aggro range, mobs will have highly variable aggro times. You can prove this by slowly inching up on a mob, stopping, and waiting for 5 or 10 seconds. If you continue to inch and stop, inch and stop, you will find the maximum range of aggro. So one technique that I use sometimes is to figure out the very maximum aggro range, stop, and wait until the mob aggros.

The non-passing of the hate list would be more akin to an aggro percentage delay on other mobs... IE, they're at the maximum of aggro range, and so there's only a certain percentage probability of the second mob aggroing.
That first part is him not understanding server ticks or maybe they worked differently then. The second on non-passing of hate lists is just a crude understanding of proximity aggro. His variable percentages were your distance to the mobs that weren't being pulled, your level, and their level.


However based on all the evidence I think sneak went through various revisions and was eventually nerfed down to it's current form on live. Most likely due to the potential synergy with latter expansions tool sets.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...30.html#p17881

Quote:
Mob LoS also seems to have a maximum distance. If I whip a Shuriken of Quellious at a frog, I can usually solo pull it by running backwards as I throw to gain distance on the attack.
Last edited by Pringles; 10-11-2018 at 01:49 AM..
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  #35  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:14 AM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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Whoops meant to add this at the bottom
https://thesafehouse.org/forums/foru...ide-to-pulling

Quote:
.) Pull
Once your group is informed, pull the mobs using one of these methods:
- use a bow, or even throwing weapons
- run past them, thus aggo’ing them
- run up to them, and attack them

Using a ranged attack is preferred, as you have a much greater chance of not pulling unwanted mobs. With one or several mobs aggo’ed on you, you should head back as fast as possible to your group. Feel free to use shortcuts like dropping from bridges, and also jump to get a little more distance between you and the mobs. If you manage/like you can also give your group another warning that mobs are "INC!!!". When pulling multiple mobs, make sure to target the most dangerous mob first, so that those who are /assist-ing will all
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  #36  
Old 12-08-2018, 08:04 PM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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It's almost as if the devs kept throwing projectiles to one rule and archery another. Then flopped them at times. Would explain the heights of rogue success using the technique only to be outclassed later when monks were really given the ratchet up with the patch to not break sneak due to a projectiles impact on another being.

This is never gonna be perfect however I believe there is enough evidence out there and in here to make an emulation to how we understand the mechanic. Evidence was asked for and I hope this part of the whole will suffice.
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  #37  
Old 01-17-2019, 05:58 AM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pringles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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I believe that throwing a ranged item then immediately hitting sneak is the correct mechanic so long as the mobs are angled right.
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  #38  
Old 05-23-2019, 11:27 PM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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  #39  
Old 05-14-2020, 06:44 PM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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Quote:
I believe based on all the evidence and reworking the mechanic towards the correct state that throwing a ranged item then immediately hitting sneak is the correct mechanic so long as the mobs are angled right and the sneak does not fail. This changes to being able to sneak then throw in Luclin. Pre luclin this skews it to only reliably working with rogues but any class/race with sneak could throw a hail Mary if they wanted to risk it.
Last edited by Pringles; 05-14-2020 at 06:48 PM..
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  #40  
Old 05-17-2020, 03:38 PM
Pringles Pringles is offline
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Came across a thread that documents fairly well the discovery of this mechanic over a couple years including nay sayers. The ending post by the OP sums it up pretty well

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...50.html#p17364

Quote:
Jun 22, 2002#60
okay ijusth, with sneak + thrown weapon pulling, there is no need to FD, like at all. It's a huge time saver, as you aren't waiting on FD to recycle for the split, basically you reduce the range at which mobs will respond you're attack on the one you're tagging, it does not completely eliminate it, you're level will effect the agro range ( as always ), but it will get reduced by use of sneak.

It used to be that using a thrown weapon broke sneak, and you have to rehit it really fast to get this method to work ( so you needed to be sneaking again by the time the weapon actually connected meaning you needed a weapon with a pretty good range ). With the changes so that throwing doesn't break sneak, that is no longer the case, makes this a LOT eaiser to use, even with reltively short range weaopns like a shattering hammer or normal throwing stars.

ID splitting is a whole other monkey, doesn't involve throwing in any way

Peaces!
Kinda funny as reading through it the OP Autumn thought it was BS for a very long time then actually tested it, lo and behold it worked after trial and error. After that it blew up in monkly business can see a ton more mentions of the technique in threads on that forum. For reasons discussed earlier the safehouse knew about it much earlier and that is even remarked upon in the OP's thread. Good read.
Last edited by Pringles; 05-17-2020 at 03:42 PM..
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