Want to Start a Rogue and Just want to Make Sure I Understand a Couple Things

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should probably check the wiki first, since you cannot decide if STR is going to help or not. I understand the stat just fine, and I can show the math of how much STR you can get from items/buffs quite easily. That is why putting points into STR is not a good idea. You can get 235 STR from buffs alone in a raid situation, and 235 + 60 is 295, which is 40 STR over the cap.

You have already admitted that the 25 STR will not be significant during the leveling process, so it doesn't really matter if you have 150 STR or 175 STR during that period.

It doesn't sound like you have anything else to go on here.

Your logic supports going CHA. You have yet to provide a real, valid argument that STA offers any benefit to a rogue over strength. The fact that sta is harder to cap than str means absolutely nothing because you could then just focus on CHA. To prove the value of STA you’d have to show that that extra hp somehow mattered to rogue survivability. Otherwise it’s just a waste, and you’d be better off capping CHA if you’re chasing hard to cap stats.

The fact of the matter remains that strength will provide a better short term benefit than sta will. If you want to cap as much as possible, then go cha over sta. Choosing STA is like this weird middle tier where you’ve raided enough to cap str easily but you haven’t capped sta yet. It doesn’t really fit into any category. It’s like “min max lite”.

OP probably went strength on their gnome, and would have been smart to do so. If they went sta, it’s not the end of the world, but I can guarantee you will feel the benefits of starting str more than starting sta. Starting sta is a magelo stat when you want to feel warm and cozy about staring at your max hp pool. You actually will have no idea if it provided a benefit to you. My Sk went stamina. I honestly didn’t come across a single situation where I was glad I went stamina, and that’s a tank class, not a dps class.

[fortior]

Melee classes and hybrids are a bit weird. A lot of your dps is mana-free, so you ideally want to be pulling/DPSing with as high an uptime as possible. The reason warriors want as much HP as possible is because of CH and because the toughest mobs in the game (the only mobs requiring a warrior tank basically) deal absurd amounts of damage per round.

There are some tough encounters where you'd want lots of health on a tank too, like if you're breaking into planes or doing nasty pulls with a bunch of caster mobs. However it's much less of a requirement than for someone tanking AoW or tunare for example.

For everything else in the game, aka constant pulls of blue mobs, stats which provide a continuous benefit are going to be more useful than a stat which doesn't really do anything as long as you stay alive. For knights, who don't tank the hardest mobs anyway, you could definitely make an argument for something other than stamina. On high sta race warriors, I'm a fan of dexterity

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Popular fan fiction you say?
It is apparent, at even a cursory glace of the posts by others you are in fact disliked at best, reviled by many. So this fan fiction of yours is the only fiction we have.
Croco even agrees with you and STILL you do not relent.

So kudos! You were correct. And still, the sole reason for this post was some simple advice on sta or str at creation, with a few simple caveats, but still the thread gets muddied to the point that it is no use to anyone.
Even if sta was the best choice, i doubt anyone cares.
There, im last poster.

Thank you for proving my point. You post insults and nonsense and feel hurt if you are not the last poster. Lol what a strange viewpoint.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol this thread is still going and he even brought up casting divine intervention on a rogue. There is no way this dude actually plays p99, he just forum quests all day.

As per usual, you didn't read what I said. I said that CHA could be useful if DI'ing Rogues became the meta. I didn't say it was the meta, and I haven't seen it done. You are very good at making yourself look foolish, and it would only take you 30 extra seconds of reading to spare you this trouble.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your logic supports going CHA. You have yet to provide a real, valid argument that STA offers any benefit to a rogue over strength. The fact that sta is harder to cap than str means absolutely nothing because you could then just focus on CHA. To prove the value of STA you’d have to show that that extra hp somehow mattered to rogue survivability. Otherwise it’s just a waste, and you’d be better off capping CHA if you’re chasing hard to cap stats.

The fact of the matter remains that strength will provide a better short term benefit than sta will. If you want to cap as much as possible, then go cha over sta. Choosing STA is like this weird middle tier where you’ve raided enough to cap str easily but you haven’t capped sta yet. It doesn’t really fit into any category. It’s like “min max lite”.

OP probably went strength on their gnome, and would have been smart to do so. If they went sta, it’s not the end of the world, but I can guarantee you will feel the benefits of starting str more than starting sta. Starting sta is a magelo stat when you want to feel warm and cozy about staring at your max hp pool. You actually will have no idea if it provided a benefit to you.

STA does offer an actual benefit. You get more HP and it is a stat that is harder to cap. I am not sure why you keep having to make stuff up in order to try and win. Max HP is useful on all classes. I am not saying it is the end-all-be-all, but trying to claim it is no value is silly. As I said above, CHA would only make sense if Rogues were DI'ed frequently. Otherwise STA is better.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No where did I claim 25 str is going to significantly impact the leveling process. We are debating amongst the best of minor benefits.

You have already admitted STR does not provide a significant impact to OP's leveling process. I am not sure what you are arguing when you agree with me. If it does not have a significant impact, why would OP notice it? He has 20k worth of gear to get him to a reasonable amount of carry capacity.

You put points into STA because you get more benefit from it over a longer period of play time. You have more hours of play where your STA is not capped. Getting STR capped is much easier, and will occur more often. It is trivial to cap STR in a raid. You will have a Shaman present for FoS + Maniacal Strength. If you don't like having both of those buffs, your preference is irrelevant. In a group you don't need 255 STR to put out good DPS.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My Sk went stamina. I honestly didn’t come across a single situation where I was glad I went stamina, and that’s a tank class, not a dps class

As for your SK, you probably should have gone INT. That stat is harder to cap than STA with Velious gear. Since Rogues don't have a mana pool, they have less stats to choose from, that is why STA becomes the next best stat, as it is harder to cap.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Melee classes and hybrids are a bit weird. A lot of your dps is mana-free, so you ideally want to be pulling/DPSing with as high an uptime as possible. The reason warriors want as much HP as possible is because of CH and because the toughest mobs in the game (the only mobs requiring a warrior tank basically) deal absurd amounts of damage per round.

There are some tough encounters where you'd want lots of health on a tank too, like if you're breaking into planes or doing nasty pulls with a bunch of caster mobs. However it's much less of a requirement than for someone tanking AoW or tunare for example.

For everything else in the game, aka constant pulls of blue mobs, stats which provide a continuous benefit are going to be more useful than a stat which doesn't really do anything as long as you stay alive. For knights, who don't tank the hardest mobs anyway, you could definitely make an argument for something other than stamina. On high sta race warriors, I'm a fan of dexterity

In my opinion, as a Paladin player, the longer it takes before CH is in efficient range the better. So, I think stamina is the best choice unless you've started on a completely new server, then it's strength. In a developed server, you'll easily gain access the weight reduction bags and plentiful strength.

If you're playing the class like you're supposed to, which is being an excellent group tank, then charisma and wisdom won't be needed much.

All the melee classes get a mediocre scaling with stamina, and you want to maximise and ease your way to 255 strength as soon as you can as Rogue, so why does it matter if you go stamina? Unless you're in the top end guilds that can easily acquire the best gear in the game in short order, extra stamina is pointless on a Rogue.

[fortior]

By the way if you want to see the effect of whatever stat on dps, you can use https://jklein.me/eqcalc/ or one of the ready-made spreadsheets. Going from 230->255 str is about 4 dps, which is just as much as going from 15->16 damage on your main hand (just non-backstab damage, obviously 16 main hand damage on a rogue would be bonkers).

The effect at lower levels is more pronounced--that is to say, I believe 25 str will net you about 2-4 dps using most calculators at any point, but that value obviously matters more when you're doing 20 dps versus when you're pulling 80. Note that str also increases your chance to hit as well as your max backstab damage, which these calculators can't really effectively estimate since a lot of to-hit chance depends on the type of mob you're hitting. It's a pretty stable, continuous benefit throughout your dpsing life. Best to get it out of the way asap when playing dps, though on a leveling monk I could see not maxing it instantly with minor twinking gear since you want to stay under the weight limit, which is quite restrictive at lower levels. On a rogue you should be at 255 str at all times though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All the melee classes get a mediocre scaling with stamina, and you want to maximise and ease your way to 255 strength as soon as you can as Rogue, so why does it matter if you go stamina? Unless you're in the top end guilds that can easily acquire the best gear in the game in short order, extra stamina is pointless on a Rogue.

Why does it matter if you go STR when you are capped on STR? I have posted multiple times how easy it is to cap your STR with EC gear and buffs. The logic is simple: Having +100 HP is better than having 300 STR instead of 275 STR. You get zero benefit from both of those STR numbers.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...6&postcount=18

Here is a simple list to get you +100 STR without filling all your slots. Your Gnome Rogue will have 160 STR without buffs. They will be capped with buffs. If you are simply in a group, you don't need 255 STR to output good DPS. I have never seen a group kick a Rogue because they had 160 STR instead of 185 STR.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:GnomeRogueTest - Here is a Magelo someone else made showing how Gnome Rogues with 60 STR will cap on their STR with only FoS. The only difficult piece to get on that Magelo is Strength of the Elements, and you can make up the strength by simply swapping the Coldain Gloves for Gauntlets of Potence.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Note that str also increases your chance to hit

This is incorrect. STR simply increases the maximum damage you can roll. There is no worn stat that can increase your chance to hit.

[Croco]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a popular fan fiction people circulate. As per usual, you are "too lazy" to actually find evidence for these claims. It is easier to repeat this fan fiction until you believe it. You refuse to believe there are other possibilities, such as people who are trolling simply get bored of said trolling. That doesn't mean I need to get the last word in. It shows that people realize they aren't going to win by simply repeating insults over and over. It isn't like people provide evidence and stop posting, while I continue to rant. People devolve into insulting me over and over again, and then get bored.

If you think repeated insults are the proper way to end a discussion, you are simply incorrect.

I went through your last 250 posts. Roughly 20 threads. I left out posts in the EC forum. Of those 20 threads 9 of them are either you getting the last post or the next to last post where the person who posts after you is responding or saying something completely off topic to what you said so as to make it unnecessary for you to reply to them. Similarly a few of them have a post by you then 3-4 posts from other people again usually either agreeing with you or completely off topic to what you were arguing about. Negating the need for you to respond back.

9 out of 20 threads. You have approaching 5k posts but you tend to post A LOT in the threads you do post in. I could continue to search the entirety of your post history to get a pin point accurate number of threads that you had to have the last word in (or there abouts taking into account the caveats I listed above) but (a) I don't care enough to thoroughly prove this point, (b) I have better things to do with my life, and (c) you would just disagree with the data and the conclusions I drew.

I'm also not going to post links to any of these threads that I found because I have no interest in getting into a tit for tat pissing match with you about whether you agree with my findings or not. For all intents and purposes the threads I saw combined with the experiences of a lot of people on these forums speak for themselves.

[fortior]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is incorrect. STR simply increases the maximum damage you can roll. There is no worn stat that can increase your chance to hit.

Yeah, my mistake. It's just skill which impacts the initial roll to miss/hit. STR increases ATK to the cap of 255 str which impacts the chance to max hit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I went through your last 250 posts. Roughly 20 threads. I left out posts in the EC forum. Of those 20 threads 9 of them are either you getting the last post or the next to last post where the person who posts after you is responding or saying something completely off topic to what you said so as to make it unnecessary for you to reply to them. Similarly a few of them have a post by you then 3-4 posts from other people again usually either agreeing with you or completely off topic to what you were arguing about. Negating the need for you to respond back.

9 out of 20 threads. You have approaching 5k posts but you tend to post A LOT in the threads you do post in. I could continue to search the entirety of your post history to get a pin point accurate number of threads that you had to have the last word in (or there abouts taking into account the caveats I listed above) but (a) I don't care enough to thoroughly prove this point, (b) I have better things to do with my life, and (c) you would just disagree with the data and the conclusions I drew.

I'm also not going to post links to any of these threads that I found because I have no interest in getting into a tit for tat pissing match with you about whether you agree with my findings or not. For all intents and purposes the threads I saw combined with the experiences of a lot of people on these forums speak for themselves.

Please post the threads you are referring to. Did you leave out the people who were simply insulting others and posting nonsense? I am not sure why you think people getting bored of trolling equates to me getting the last word. I am sorry, but saying "I have the evidence, I just don't want to show it", is a silly excuse lol.

[Croco]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please post the threads you are referring to. Did you leave out the people who were simply insulting others and posting nonsense? I am not sure why you think people getting bored of trolling equates to me getting the last word. I am sorry, but saying "I have the evidence, I just don't want to show it", is a silly excuse lol.

You are free to search through your own post history to see all the threads I saw. There are lots. I'm not going to debate you. I have more interesting things to do with my life. I already regret the 20 or so minutes I spent looking through 10 pages of your most recent posts.