Which class for Dungeon Crawl focus?

[Hrothgaar]

Thank you all for these advices, I build a High Elf Enchanter :-)

[JDeth]

Originally Posted by Hrothgaar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you say the Ench and Shamn are equally potent in a dungeon, does that mean that both will be able to pretty much defeat the same foes or camps down there?

If my memory serves Enchanters mesmerize, and Shamans root and enjoying aggro.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by JDeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If my memory serves Enchanters mesmerize, and Shamans root and enjoying aggro.

On a basic level, this is true. But there's some more to it:

When leveling up, enchanters can do dungeon crawls, but shamans can't really. Without high-level spells and hp/mp levels (even without uber gear), a shaman just can't handle the process of aggroing 3+ things at a time and rooting them and killing them, and few dungeon crawls involve only single or double pulls. A chanter though has lull/calm, mezzes (including an aoe mez), mem blurs, all from pretty low levels, plus both invis and invis vs undead. By the 30s, a chanter can realistically aggro an entire room (like 4-5 mobs) on purpose and walk out of the fight having gotten full xp for 2-3 and partial xp for another 1-2, and with spawns now broken up to handle more easily next time around, or snipe out just one of the mobs that you want while leaving the rest standing there like idiots, or skip past a room that you don't want to deal with, etc.

At 50+, a sham has more ac and hp, buffs rolling on himself, canni, hopefully is a troll or iksar for even more regen, has a pet for distraction and maybe a bit of damage, MR debuffs to help his roots actually stick for a long time with paralyzing earth, etc. He can aggro multiples and kill them all, though without being 60+torpor or 50+ with epic, it's still not quite easy. At 50+ for chanter it's ridiculous the kinds of fights you can take and walk away from unscathed.

At the real max, like velious raid gear max, a shaman gains a lot of ground on a chanter because that amazing gear benefits the sham relatively more (a lot more) than the chanter. The chanter is still pretty paper thin when he is getting wailed on, and still needs to rely on a charm to do serious work, etc. The sham gets tough as nails with velious gear besides the slow and heals and whatever else he had before. At this point the sham is far and away better at killing a single, very tough target (think WW dragons, velious nameds, stuff like that), and probably pretty comparable most anything else too... though some stuff they still will have a harder time with than a chanter because of the different tool sets. Like, all the gear in the world wouldn't make me want to farm loot in HS south or the bigger camps in sebilis, or crawl through a zone full of see invis stuff, because even if you can do it, it's a pain.


While already typing a small book... shams and enchanters are similarly useful in duos, trios, groups, raids, beyond soloing. They've got somewhat different duo/trio partners since the sham can be a healer for a couple melees, but they're both great in small groups and regular groups, and they're both more-or-less buff bots in large raids.


Necros are more like enchanters than shamans, and are the 3rd and only other class, imo, that really can count as a solo dungeon crawler. They generally have more crawl-ability imo than a sham but less than a chanter. Harmshield, feign death, a pretty-tough summoned pet, invis and ivu, undead charm and lulls, one kinda-mez, roots... let's them get single pulls with effort, lets them handle bigger pulls, lets them move around in nasty areas, lets them AFK as desired, gives them different options for killing things. They generally can't do anything that a chanter also can't though their damage spells and summoned pet give them an edge when dealing with stuff that's quite a bit lower than they are. They generally still can't handle the super-tough nameds like a shaman can, though I think there are some ways they can deal with level 60+ stuff in Velious in limited circumstances that a chanter couldn't. They're less desired in most all grouping situations though.

[Pyrion]

The people on this thread are right to suggest enchanter for the most possibilities while dungeoneering. It has been said in this thread a few times already: Enchanters, especially solo, will die A LOT!! while learning the ropes... and even later due to bad luck. This can be very frustrating. If your frustration tolerance isn't that high, i would suggest 2 alternatives:

1) Necro: From 16 on, you always have feign death to basically get out of almost every sticky situation. You are more limited in your abilities than enchanter, but you are way sturdier. In addition to feign death you can easily heal yourself.

2) Bard: While playing a bard can be overwhelming (because everything you do only lasts 18 seconds), bards do have the most complete toolset of all classes in my opinion. You can heal, mez, charm, snare, fear, swarm kite, lull, run as fast as nobody else, invis, levitate, dot like a pro, melee to a degree and on top of it you wear *plate* armor. Way less squishy than enchanter but not as good as a chanter when it comes to dealing with lots of mobs... still better than any other class besides chanter on this though.

[Tecmos Deception]

Bard isn't a solo class in the "solo dungeon crawl" sense though.

It's a "common knowledge" sort of thing that gets parroted around a lot that enchanters die a lot and get boned because of bad luck. I have a somewhat different opinion on the matter, though, after playing one on live and 2 1-60 on p99 (and a 3rd 1-55 on red), all primarily solo. Yes, while learning you'll likely die more than like, a necro soloing outdoors, or a mage soloing low blue cons, or whatever. But that's not very apples to apples. A chanter can solo in 99.99% safety when he's outdoors with sow and fighting only 1-2 mobs at a time near a zoneline too. And I encourage new enchanters to get a feel for new zones and new spells in similar situations (near a zoneline).

Bad luck killing chanters IS a thing, though it's a thing for everyone else too. It is more of a problem for chanters, but the way you play can go a LONG ways to mitigate the effects of bad luck. Never start a fight below 100% mana, make extensive use of runes if there is any chance of getting hit, know the area and the mobs you're dealing with inside and out (levels, abilities, respawns, pathers, safe spots), etc. A charm break is no biggie when you are positioned properly and at 85m and no adds show up. Awful luck, like 3 breaks in a fight, still can kill you, or force you to zone/gate... but again, it's not like a necro is going to be in a different boat if he has 4 resists in a row on darkness (it happens!) or a sham's roots don't hold as he fights multiples, or whatever.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bard isn't a solo class in the "solo dungeon crawl" sense though
or

I disagree with this 100%. Have you played a bard? Mad respect for your enchanter skills but I’ve seen you bash bards in threads before. There is no better dungeon soloer than a bard up until level 50. They can still do it 50+, just have to med after running out of mana. I’m not saying they are as good as an enchanter 50+. However they should be considered solo dungeon crawlers. And IMO they are much better than shamans in that sense until a shaman has gear and torpor. Even then, shamans can’t dps that well and that’s a longgggg way to get to that point when being 60 generally gets boring after awhil if not raising. .

Much better than given credit for, and playing a plate class that can Regen and charm in dungeons has been one of my most enjoyable experiences on p99.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree with this 100%. Have you played a bard? Mad respect for your enchanter skills but I’ve seen you bash bards in threads before. There is no better dungeon soloer than a bard up until level 50. They can still do it 50+, just have to med after running out of mana. I’m not saying they are as good as an enchanter 50+. However they should be considered solo dungeon crawlers. And IMO they are much better than shamans in that sense until a shaman has gear and torpor. Even then, shamans can’t dps that well and that’s a longgggg way to get to that point when being 60 generally gets boring after awhil if not raising. .

Much better than given credit for, and playing a plate class that can Regen and charm in dungeons has been one of my most enjoyable experiences on p99.

I'm not bashing bards. I love bards. They're amazing. I had one at 59 (my first character that high on p99), 3rd epic bard on the server, VP weapons, etc. I'm somewhat familiar with them. Please quote me bashing bards, because I don't recall it.

All that aside, I've literally never seen nor heard of a bard solo dungeon crawling basically anywhere, ever. I'd enjoy seeing it, but if this were really a thing, I think I would have at least heard of it at some point in the last several years of hanging around p99. I'm happy to be proven incorrect.

Edit - screw you though, because now I want to try to play a bard from 1-60 soloing in dungeons like I did with Noman, and I already don't have enough time in the day! But really I doubt it's possible in a real way. Being able to kill stuff in a dungeon with charm isn't quite the same thing as "solo dungeon crawl" imo. A bard seems like it'd be too reliant on a semblance of open space to make it work, something that is lacking in a lot of dungeons, and doesn't seem to have the tools you'd need to turn a sour situation back to good when things inevitably go bad. If people think enchanters live on a razor's edge, I can only imagine trying to crawl through any dungeon that's not blackburrow, crushbone, city of mist, karnors-type dungeons. I may be overstating a shaman's solo dungeon crawl ability pre-50, but I don't think I understated a bard's by saying they're not really a solo dungeon crawl class.

[kruptcy]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All that aside, I've literally never seen nor heard of a bard solo dungeon crawling basically anywhere, ever. I'd enjoy seeing it, but if this were really a thing, I think I would have at least heard of it at some point in the last several years of hanging around p99. I'm happy to be proven incorrect.

You are not incorrect. Bards can solo amazingly, but not crawl dungeons. I have leveled 2 bards (not that leveling 2 bards is a measure of skill or knowledge) and primarily group / duo, rather than swarm. I consider myself to be a pretty competent bard, and I hope others would agree.

Bards have a few primary methods of soloing:

Fear kiting (not appropriate in enclosed spaces with lots of potential adds)
Charming (not appropriate in enclosed spaces, as you'll take hits on every break)
Regular Kiting (not appropriate in enclosed spaces with lots of potential adds)

This isn't to say you can't solo for exp at very select camps in certain dungeons, but you'll never see a bard able to crawl through a dungeon the way a chanter or a shaman can.

Edit: Not trying to explain to you, rather to other people in the thread.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All that aside, I've literally never seen nor heard of a bard solo dungeon crawling basically anywhere, ever. I'd enjoy seeing it, but if this were really a thing, I think I would have at least heard of it at some point in the last several years of hanging around p99. I'm happy to be proven incorrect.

I played my EC mule Dramor quite a bit solo in dungeons up to 52 (KC/CoM, but also SolB). If you think about it a tick, everyone and their brother can solo a fungi monk to 60 and Bards stack up reasonably:

Bards get max defense skill, slow song, and regeneration song which is basically a second fungi. Dramor was still getting pasted at 50 or so, but he was in Lambent not Dwarf armor and IIRC Bard defensive skills also got a boost with Velious. Bards can also fear-kite the last 30% or so and take no damage at all while regenerating. I'd say the Bard is actually ahead of the monk here.

Bard weapon ratios are actually quite good, and they can supplement their damage with song/ss bracer damage shields and chants. If we guesstimate 20 dps melee, 8 dps damage shield, and 15 dps from two chants, that's a solid 45 or so. Way ahead of the soloing Paladin videos, and not all that far behind a Monk.

Monks can FD, but Bards can mez and heal up. I would guess that a Bard could kill anything <=55 with enough patience. I would definitely hesitate to lull rooms of 3-4 on a Bard unless I could zip to the zoneline, though.

And we haven't even talked about Charm; basically everything you said about distance from the mob applies to Bards, and they can even run away while recharming.

The biggest weakness of Bards is that they get zero HP buffs: no shielding, no runes, etc. So you can go down pretty fast. Fortunately there are a lot of epic clerics on P99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR: Enchanters are better, but Bards can definitely solo in dungeons.

[kruptcy]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR: Enchanters are better, but Bards can definitely solo in dungeons.

Again, Bards can solo in dungeons, but we are talking about crawling. Comparing a bard to a monk is just silliness. Bards dont even get double attack and don't get riposte until 58. Not to mention lower caps on all defensive skills. Unless you have epic, your songs are extraordinarily hamstrung by meleeing, and all of the things you said would work only against a single low blue, if even then.

Bards are my favorite class, but they are not a solo dungeon crawling class.