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  #31  
Old 09-21-2022, 05:00 AM
Solist Solist is offline
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Being a geared warrior does not make you a good warrior. This server has had a hundred geared warriors over the years and maybe 4-5 good ones.

We use tridents for the slow, and it's a solid hitpoint slot. Its aggro has always been far less than other options.

Back when feverblade was so broken it was laughably overpowered, there was 3? of us using it server wide for years. But the aggro wasnt 'needed' then as clickies and rogues actually worked.

Frostreaver is just not enough hate generation. It is not good enough. That is that. It's a full 30% short on the hate generation needed to keep rogues alive through your defensive, assuming starting with a full totem. Thus you get in the situation your bumps need to be more careful flopping aggro, and your rogues dieing before you.

Any of the top 10 weapons, in either hand, is enough. No 2h is close enough, in 2022, now. They were much further behind pre patch.

Your frostreaver is fine on an engage where you probably have 1 full minute of hate generation, maybe a lady N coth engage? But you'd be stupid not to have a shield on and tash stick then willsapper, then redblade or jaelens or something comparable for the hitpoints and raw AC, until your full chain arrives.

Edit:
We (the server) have enough shit warriors in good gear who fuck up and cant manage threat generation to be 2nd/3rd tanks, without shit warriors failing to make enough hate when actually tanking. That is the job. There's great arguments for dropping a few hate/sec for more HP on say feverblade vs red+jaelens. I often run a red+horn of hsagra offhand on fights where my peak threat gen is set beforehand (tunare, any coth dragon enageg dragon). I'd guildkick myself for using that shit on a dps race like LtK, or something where slows are bombed hard like doze or dagarn.

It's situational as hell though the times I would reduce my threat generation, so some examples would be post slow on (non sieve) trash mobs, sure. VStabilised vulak, sure. Noone is going to out threat you on a vulak while ducking ae's, go ham with red+jaelens or hsagra.

The situation changes too, start of fight vs chain actually established and safe, vs slowed mob alt tabbed. It's all liquid. You could be starting with a tash stick and a shield on a lady nev or zlexak. Then willsapper for a clutch slow, then red+hsagra when proper slowed.

There's great arguments for dumping scep clicks too, bombing slows on dozekar? yes give me 3 clicks initially and 1 for every 20 seconds you go without a proc, that will match a solo shaman's turgur's recast delay. Obviously if you've been lucky enough to get a bump in and blown some totems from out of range it's less of an issue.

Worrying about any of that shit is second to hovering your worts and covering gaps in chain. Having reaper ready. I'd take a shitty warrior with a frostreaver who can cover his own chain gaps with worts early on over a BiS retard every single day - Until the fights stabilised and the rogues start dieing.

The monks and rangers also are critical here too, your threat generations directly changes how they have to behave. If I take 3 top slot flame licks to get aggro when you die, we've lost 4 rogues. That would happen as I'm having to manage my aggro on the ranger too much. If I need to do more than 1 totem 1 scep click on my monk to pull aggro, it means I've had to flop in the fight too late as the war threat is shit. Everything moves smoother and better when the warrior makes the most possible threat. Shit warriors kill dps on tank swaps as they force your bumps to drop too much aggro. It's far easier for me to bump a tank swap when we have a feverblade/redblade than some goose using epic 2hs and I've had to jolt a dozen times. Or flopped 2mins into the fight and am scrambling with tunare fist etc to build as much threat as possible on the monk again to be ready.
Last edited by Solist; 09-21-2022 at 05:21 AM..
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  #32  
Old 09-21-2022, 05:43 AM
Solist Solist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Lol we have perma scepter farmers getting paid for it and scepters last me a while thank you! I just use a click here or there if need and only on specific mobs /nod.

I honestly did not know about the cast with rune on, will try that ty!
VS is a gongshow. Generally 2 things happen. Some spaz with low AC rocking -15 ears etc tanks it with a 2hs and drops rune every 4 seconds gets shitstomped on rune drop or , loses aggro and it flips around a bunch. That or the pet breaks and it was the pet who had aggro and the wiz gets summoned.

Max AC gear, plus shield AC, click totems. Throw an offhand on when the DPS arrives.
VS is uniquely the only 'raid' mob (thats duoable....) where AC is the only thing that really matters, probably make the argument horn of hsagra/whitestone should be the only thing used to be honest.

Monks can do same. Really need that buckler of insight on mine [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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  #33  
Old 09-21-2022, 09:42 AM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Frostreaver is just not enough hate generation. It is not good enough. That is that. It's a full 30% short on the hate generation needed to keep rogues alive through your defensive, assuming starting with a full totem. Thus you get in the situation your bumps need to be more careful flopping aggro, and your rogues dieing before you.
No sarcasm in this reply … I am genuinely curious. You have stated that FR is a good 30% short on hate generation to keep rogues alive. This implies there are aggro combinations out there that are >=30% more threat than Frostreaver.

Please name them.

We already ran the math for willsapper. Trident is extremely similar. Ratio is better to a minuscule degree but slightly slower application of damage bonus. After the proc, however, the dot does give you a nominal 3.333 hate per second bump from the dot. Many have already established that Trident/red epic is what we see a lot of the best tanks using and we have already run the napkin math on a nearly identical combo back on page 2. Feverblade remains is an obvious threat step up from Trident, so yes I am aware of it as well.

So please … name the weapon setups that are >=30% more threat. Prior to the proc threat nerf there would be no argument from me. I know those setups used to exist.
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Last edited by Troxx; 09-21-2022 at 09:51 AM..
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  #34  
Old 09-21-2022, 10:30 AM
Duik Duik is offline
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Speaking from arse.
Could it be a rogues +dps problem and not a tank -dps problem. Did rogues dps suffer similar downturn when hate procs nerfed.
im assuming rog dont equip for hate procs. Speaking pure "math".
Last edited by Duik; 09-21-2022 at 10:32 AM..
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  #35  
Old 09-21-2022, 10:47 AM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Everyone suffered when procs were nerfed because warriors started generating exponentially less hate. Dd and dot procs were not affected. It was the stun, poison/disease counters (hate per counter), stun, blind, slow. All of these used to COMPOUND AND STACK additively. Now anything that isn’t direct damage or dot is hard capped at 400 hate (exception being red blade at 500 hate).

Infestation used to be 900 threat per proc + 12 + 10 per tick. Now it’s 400 + dd/dot

Feverblade used to be 1200 + dd + dot now 400 + dd/dot

WESS used to be 1200 (disease counters) + blind + debuff (like 2000 hate per). Now it’s 400
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  #36  
Old 09-21-2022, 11:41 AM
Gannun Gannun is offline
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Just thinking out loud.

Does factoring in Defensive's 35% reduction in white threat have a big part to play? i.e. 3% of a big damage number is bigger than 35% of a small number

This could be what's causing the difference?
Last edited by Gannun; 09-21-2022 at 11:44 AM..
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  #37  
Old 09-21-2022, 11:54 AM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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To break down some popular weapons, see below. I included a low hanging fruit groupable/buyable option for comparison. Of note I screwed up the willsapper DB math on page 2. It is corrected here.

Damage bonus hate per minute mainhand 100% haste

Infestation 1320
Feverblade 1320
Willsapper 1,188
Trident 1131
Red epic 990
Frostreaver 1858

Proc hate per minute mainhand

Infestation 824 +\- 100 from dot = 824/924
Feverblade 1020 +\- 220 from dot = 1020/1220
Willsapper 800
Trident 800 +\- 200 from dot = 800/1000
Red epic 1200
Frostreaver 1050

Proc + damage bonus only per minute 100% haste

Infestation 2144/2244
Feverblade 2340/2540
Willsapper 1988
Trident 1931/2131
Red epic 2190
Frostreaver 2908

The above is just for mainhand threat from only DB and procs. It does not factor in the threat per second from weapon ratio (white damage potential). Weapons with better ratios like willsapper, feverblade, and trident will absolutely perform better compared to infestation or red epic despite what the numbers above might imply. Above numbers also do not factor in procs from offhand but this can be calculated quite easily. Of the above setup Frostreaver will have superior white threat potential relative to any other combination of the above.

Using Feverblade and red epic for offhand as an example (again only DB and procs for these numbers) clocks in at 2940/3160 (depends on how much the dot actually adds if resisted? I donít know?) vs Frostreaver at 2908. Napkin math better? For those numbers exclusively yes. For proc reliability - always yes. The question is to what degree does this advantage hold when comparing an 11/18 and 14/24 combo vs 42/43? 2hand ratio white damage is better and it isnít subject to any extra diminished returns from duel wield, duel wield + double attack check combo on offhand and applies the triple attack boost to the full sum total of the 2handerís ratio.

I dunno Iím just not seeing it. I would love to be informed of any combination of weapons on project 1999 that are >= 30% more threat than Frostreaver. Gone are the days of insane aggro weapon procs. These days they are all fairly similar, making the damage bonus and white damage threat potential really important.

Again, though, I am a realist and will acknowledge that having 3 procs a minute vs 2 is an important creature comfort for increased reliability and predictability. If I had any combination of willsapper, red epic, trident or feverblade I would almost undoubtedly use them most if not all the time for this very reason. Longitudinally over extended fights Ö despite the FR possibly generating even more total threat.
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  #38  
Old 09-21-2022, 11:56 AM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Just thinking out loud.

Does factoring in Defensive's 35% reduction in white threat have a big part to play? i.e. 3% of a big damage number is bigger than 35% of a small number

This could be what's causing the difference?
Neither defensive nor defensive negatively impact threat. White damage potential remains static hit/miss or even 35% reduced from defensive. Static per swing based on haste, damage and delay. Same as it has always been.
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  #39  
Old 09-21-2022, 12:26 PM
Dogz_SS Dogz_SS is offline
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Hi. I have Frostreaver, Feaverblade, Red blade and Shissar. My input - I have used 2h epic to tank VS multiple times without issue. Its not difficult, if dps are ripping from you it's 100% their fault, that fight isn't a race.

Frostreaver is excellent weapon, and I love using it in groups. But for MT raiding I find it lacking. Its just not reliable enough. Where as if I go Red blade MH, Shissar OH or Feaverblade MH, Redblade OH it feels much more reliable.

I haven't done any kind of testing though, it's just my experience
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  #40  
Old 09-21-2022, 01:22 PM
Toxigen Toxigen is offline
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If you have your warrior epic you best be using it and not Dain's mediocre 2 hander.

Just sayin.
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