most underpowered class in game?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I tried to see your mage opinion, but the more you talk about it I'm convinced that you're actually just making things up now to support your mage claim, lol. Which isn't surprising, we all know you like to spin your opinions as facts, and will defend them to the death. I can respect that in certain scenarios, but I'm not really sure who are you trying to convince here, other than yourself.



This entire paragraph is completely inaccurate, lol. Mages have a toolkit that actually shines the more you know about the game. Getting a max pet & positioning it, Cothing a puller to clear aggro when needed, keeping DS on the tank, providing muzzles to increase dps, debuffing to help charmers maintain charm for more dps/safety, mod rods to assist the healer in getting more mana. A well played mage is really a nice thing to see in the group scene. Nobody cares about their summoned weapons, lol, nor should that be a factor in considering their overall utility.



As others have mentioned, you are putting way too much value on utility/CC when it comes to solo/grouping. You don't need all that to get to lvl 60 quickly solo. You need to just know the right camps, and be efficient at killing quickly. Mages can do this very efficiently, unlike a rogue. Utility comes into play more for experiencing different camps & solo artist stuff, which is really niche and outside the scope of this discussion. And as for grouping, Necros are an amazing class, but honestly nobody really cares about their utility when forming a group. Other classes will cover that utility. They would take a mage 99% of the times for superior DPS. Necros are kinda like paladins in the group atmosphere, they can make up for a lot of deficiencies, but overall not really needed. The formula for forming groups is pretty simple here on p99: get a tank, healer, cc, and fill the rest with the best dps you can find.



This whole section is a stretch and I think you're just making up things to support your mage claim at this point [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. You are claiming that the Rogue toolkit isn't gimped by p99 knowledge, but improved by it. This makes no sense. Rogue's have no toolkit, everyone knows how to /attack and backstab. Sneak/hide & pick lock have extremely limited use in the group setting. Being a knowledgeable rogue doesn't really make a group better, you might just annoy the tank/healer slightly less when you start using your evade hotkey. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mage's are certainly not the most underpowered class in the game when looking at all aspects of it. It's more like a close tie between Rangers, Paladins, and Wizards, with Rogues not too far behind that. Ranger's are a perfect example of how worthless utility can be. It doesn't make them good soloers, nor does does it really make them well liked in groups, despite the fact that they can also dps. Same with Wizards, they have a ton of utility, but I have no doubt I could out level one on a mage as knowledge/efficiency/minimizing downtime is the most important thing when leveling up solo. Wizards also are despised in groups, despite having a ton of useful tools.

I don't spin my opinions as facts. People just think everything that they disagree with are opinions, even when something like math, videos, etc. can objectively prove it. There have been many times where I have been accused of this, even when the math or a video objectively proves otherwise lol. I am sorry people think Everquest is magical somehow, and they can make their opinions work, even though the game is based on an objective set of rules.

Cothing a puller to clear agro is rarely done or necessary in group situations. I don't think I have ever seen a group actively seek a mage for this purpose, unless there are some very specific camps that need it. I am not saying Mages can't do things other than DPS in a group, but generally speaking that's how most groups handle having a Mage. As for muzzles, they are a nice increase in DPS for sure, but this again assumes your group actually needs it. Same with DS, Mages do not have a monopoly on DS, so it isn't like groups often seek them out for that purpose. Mages do not have a monopoly on resist debuffs either.

You are correct that you could level to 60 without CC or utility. But having it allows you to do more camps and also gain more money/items along the journey. Just because you can level to 60 a bit faster doesn't mean you end up in the same place as someone who had better access to camps in terms of having equal money/gear. If you level up to 60 faster and then have to spend more time farming, you end up at the same place in terms of total time spent.

I would take a Necro over a Mage 99% of the time. They still have good DPS and have a lot of utility to help increase kill speed, pull when the puller needs to AFK, etc. You really don't need mega DPS to have a great group.

I think you misunderstood my rogue point. Their toolkit is very simple, and improved by knowledge because you can get the best DPS possible by knowing which items to get and which haste breakpoints will help increase the amount of times you can backstab. Conversely, summoning items get less and less useful as knowledge increases.

Rangers, Paladins, SK, Rogues, and Wizards are lower on the totem pole for sure. I don't think I have ever claimed otherwise. But again, Mages are lower because they don't have good utility overall. Rangers, Paladins, SK's, and Wizards can solo more camps than a Mage could, and they are still great in groups. Rogues are the only ones who can't do this, but again Mages are mostly used for DPS in groups, so you need to compare rogue DPS to Mage DPS to see which one wins out. I wouldn't put as much emphasis on soloing for a rogue as a Mage, because everybody should know that they need to group more for a Rogue. Since Mages can solo much better, soloing becomes a bigger part to consider.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When I am considering "most underpowered overall", I have to look at it in more general terms, such as what can the class do given it's options. There is no way to objectively come to a conclusion on a single class if you start including specific details such as preferred leveling paths, unless you can compile a vast amount of data, which nobody is going to do.

For example, if you are someone who loves killing in Droga to level/gain money, Mage is no longer going to be the most underpowered, because they do well in that zone. But I can't assume people are going for this leveling/farming path.

You need to consider that Mages have many different paths they can take, and not everyone chooses the most optimal. Because of this, having more limited options in terms of what camps they can do due to lack of CC affects their score negatively in my estimation.

Even if you try and think in terms of "assuming a class plays optimally, who is most underpowered", it is difficult to decide, because I am not sure how you would split solo/group preferences. Rogues and Mages basically fill a DPS slot in a group, so if the player is only grouping, you are basically comparing DPS between the two classes. But it is probably difficult to determine at which points in the game soloing is more optimal than groups, and vice versa. You would need a lot of data.

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's really simple, and I've already said it twice. If DPS was king, you would see gear checks to get into groups. Anybody with noob gear would never be able to get an XP group, because their DPS would be too low. I have never seen a gear check on P99 for any group. The only requirements for gear typically come from raiding guilds, for resistances and clickies, not DPS gear.

The only things that have any meaningful impact on melee DPS is weapon(s) and haste item. Gear doesn't really affect caster DPS at all, mana pool size is irrelevant in a grinding environment. The reason people don't screen players for gear before inviting them into group is not that DPS is irrelevant, it's because it's a piece of shit thing to do and also most players have good enough gear to where there isn't significant room for improvements. Nobody's gonna look at an epic rogue or t-staff monk and go "pfff, no Vulak weapon? GTFO!"

As long as the basic necessities are covered regarding heals/tank/CC, DPS is the most important thing in a group. It's just that on the whole, class has far, far more impact on DPS than gear does. Gear is irrelevant for casters, monks will often be out pulling half the time anyway, and rogues can get their epic from a vending machine. There's no real reason to screen for gear. There is a reason to screen for class, which people very much do, because DPS matters an incredible amount. This is why nobody is happy to take a druid or wizard along as DPS.

It's way too impractical to check someone's gear. What are you gonna do, send them a tell asking them to link their magelo? Have them show up and inspect them, then tell them to leave if they don't meet the standards? But you very much do mind what class they are, you do that yourself 100%, and that's because you know that if you don't have good DPS in the group, it's gonna be a dogshit group and a waste of your time.

Utility isn't that important. People know the game like the back of their hand and are vastly overgeared on average. Ask anyone whether they would prefer to fill their DPS spot with an epic rogue/mage, or a druid/wizard for the sake of having evac. A group needs enough healing and CC to not die, and then all that matters besides is DPS because that's what determines how well your time is spent.

[PatChapp]

Coth to clear agro is very useful if your trying to small group royals and such
The enchanter can aetash,mage coths them out and it is much less painful to paci the room.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only things that have any meaningful impact on melee DPS is weapon(s) and haste item. The reason people don't screen players for gear before inviting them into group is not that DPS is irrelevant, it's because it's a piece of shit thing to do and also most players have good enough gear to where there isn't significant room for improvements. Nobody's gonna look at an epic rogue and go "pfff, no Vulak dagger? GTFO!"

As long as the basic necessities are covered, DPS is the most important thing in a group. It's just that on the whole, class has far, far more impact on DPS than gear does. Gear has literally no impact on DPS for casters, monks will often be out pulling half the time anyway, and rogues can get their epic from a vending machine. There's no real reason to screen for gear. There is a reason to screen for class, which people very much do, because DPS matters an incredible amount. This is why nobody is happy to take a druid or wizard along as DPS.

It's way too impractical to check someone's gear. What are you gonna do, send them a tell asking them to link their magelo? Have them show up and inspect them, then tell them to leave if they don't meet the standards? But you very much do mind what class they are, you do that yourself 100%, and that's because you know that if you don't have good DPS in the group, it's gonna be a dogshit group and a waste of your time.

There is a small problem with your assertion that "DPS is the most important thing in a group". If it was, then you would screen gear. That is my point. Gear does significantly impact a melee character's DPS. For all you know, the rogue coming into your group doesn't have a haste item. If DPS was really that important, you would by necessity have to screen for gear on melee DPS characters. Otherwise, they just wouldn't be able to perform to your standards. You cannot simultaneously assume DPS is extremely important while also not caring about how much DPS someone does by not performing gear checks. It just doesn't make sense.

Having group members who know how to play the game and a decent group composition is all you really need to run most successful groups. Typically speaking a decent group composition has good utility, which is why utility is generally more important. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, as some camps are harder than usual, and need more specific compositions to be successful, but most normal camps do not need this.

I agree doing gear checks is a shitty thing to do, but luckily you don't actually have to do them, because DPS isn't as important as you claim[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: You are also incorrect about gear having no effect on caster DPS. Max mana can very much effect how much DPS a caster is doing. More med time = less casting = less DPS. And to be clear, I include CC and Healing in the "utility" category.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now to play devils advocate, you could say Rogues are even worse than Mages, because they have a similar problem. Not great when soloing, but much better in groups and raids. Don't misunderstand the "not great" part for soloing with Mages. I am not saying Mages can't solo quickly. They are simply more limited than a lot of other classes due to lack of CC. What they can solo they solo very well. The only reason why I disagree with this is because rogues are designed to work this way. Their kit isn't gimped by P99 knowledge, but improved by it. They also have higher DPS than a Mage, which is the main consideration for Rogue vs. Mage when in a group situation.

Mage is the #1 DPS in the game for classic group composition (no Charming, no Velious endgame weapons). Especially before Level 55 and pre-Epic, Mage beats Rogue by a lot. The pet alone is more DPS at that gear level, and then you add in their damage shield and nukes on top of it.

Mages are great at soloing, the comparison to Rogue there is very nonsensical. Not having traditional CC on Mage can definitely be very annoying, but for grouping someone else will have Root anyway, and for soloing you just have to plan properly. Your pet is the CC, you can break many camps solo by chain petting. After broken the Water Pet has crazy regen, allowing you to maximize your DPS by not having to keep casting new pets and instead use the mana on damage spells. In the period of the game before melee gear gets really good, a Mage on their own could grind through more MOBs than a trio of Warrior + Cleric + Wizard. The pet is better DPS than a Warrior and its regen is like having a dedicated healer already, and Mage damage shield + nuke together is more efficient than Wizard nuke.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rangers, Paladins, SK's, and Wizards can solo more camps than a Mage could

This is NOT true, lol. Although it depends on exact era and context. The hybrids improve a lot in Velious. And in general SK can get to some camps faster because of Feign Death. But for actual ability to kill the most stuff solo, Mage beats all of those classes. By a lot. Paladin especially is very slow to kill stuff solo. Yikes!

I remember soloing places like Mistmoore graveyard as a Mage, while whole groups sat by, mad that I was able to take it all on my own. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Cen]

It's sometimes hard for me to decide what class is worst across the board, but I can always name something every class is bad at [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Some are less bad at their worst than others as well.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When I am considering "most underpowered overall", I have to look at it in more general terms, such as what can the class do given it's options. There is no way to objectively come to a conclusion on a single class if you start including specific details such as preferred leveling paths, unless you can compile a vast amount of data, which nobody is going to do.

For example, if you are someone who loves killing in Droga to level/gain money, Mage is no longer going to be the most underpowered, because they do well in that zone. But I can't assume people are going for this leveling/farming path.

You need to consider that Mages have many different paths they can take, and not everyone chooses the most optimal. Because of this, having more limited options in terms of what camps they can do due to lack of CC affects their score negatively in my estimation.

Even if you try and think in terms of "assuming a class plays optimally, who is most underpowered", it is difficult to decide, because I am not sure how you would split solo/group preferences. Rogues and Mages basically fill a DPS slot in a group, so if the player is only grouping, you are basically comparing DPS between the two classes. But it is probably difficult to determine at which points in the game soloing is more optimal than groups, and vice versa. You would need a lot of data.

Why can't you imagine people are going for this leveling/farming path? People will generally find the path of least resistance in this game. What's going to get you the quickest xp possible(we aren't all teenagers anymore who can play for hours on end), and what will get you the best pp gains. A mage doing droga can out farm a lot of these weaker classes per hour(ranger, paladin, wizard). You might get bored of doing it, but that doesn't necessarily make them a weak class.

This thread was about the most underPOWERed class. What a mage can do, they do it extremely well, and they are very powerful at doing it. You're pretty much equating utility to power, which I don't really see going back to point about rangers. They have a lot of utility but I don't think anyone really considers them powerful, and they are very limited in what they can actually take head on. While a wizard might be able get around easier with root/IVU & maybe nuke down a random mob or 2 that a mage can't get to as easily, that doesn't make them powerful, because now the wizard has to sit for 20+ min to get that mana back, lol.

It is not hard to determine at which points in the game soloing is more optimal than groups. I've leveled many, many alts on this server, and I've explored tons of different leveling paths. Solo is almost always more optimal than grouping if the class can do it efficiently, like a mage, and you know where to hunt and what mobs to kill. Duos/trios can help speed things up in certain situations 55+, but rogues are really not great at doing this. I consider a rogue more of a 4-6 man group class, where xp per hour starts to take a significant dive.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why can't you imagine people are going for this leveling/farming path? People will generally find the path of least resistance in this game. What's going to get you the quickest xp possible(we aren't all teenagers anymore who can play for hours on end), and what will get you the best pp gains. A mage doing droga can out farm a lot of these weaker classes per hour(ranger, paladin, wizard). You might get bored of doing it, but that doesn't necessarily make them a weak class.

This thread was about the most underPOWERed class. What a mage can do, they do it extremely well, and they are very powerful at doing it. You're pretty much equating utility to power, which I don't really see going back to point about rangers. They have a lot of utility but I don't think anyone really considers them powerful, and they are very limited in what they can actually take head on. While a wizard might be able get around easier with root/IVU & maybe nuke down a random mob or 2 that a mage can't get to as easily, that doesn't make them powerful, because now the wizard has to sit for 20+ min to get that mana back, lol.

It is not hard to determine at which points in the game soloing is more optimal than groups. I've leveled many, many alts on this server, and I've explored tons of different leveling paths. Solo is almost always more optimal than grouping if the class can do it efficiently, like a mage, and you know where to hunt and what mobs to kill. Duos/trios can help speed things up in certain situations 55+, but rogues are really not great at doing this. I consider a rogue more of a 4-6 man group class, where xp per hour starts to take a significant dive.

I can imagine it[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The question of "most underpowered in general" breaks down if you allow all paths, because no one is going to generate that much data. There are too many assumptions about which path you can take and at what point. There is almost certainly a leveling path where a Ranger would outperform a Mage, for example. In that particular case, Ranger would be better than Mage. You would basically need to figure out all paths and see which classes get the most and best paths to determine an objective best and worst. Nobody is going to do that.

So you have to look at what each class can do, and what people end up using them for. Mages can solo and group well, and they are highly prized in raids. But remember that most Mages level to 55 and then just become a CoTH bot, where most Rogues level to 60 and play outside of Raids. This is one clear indicator of why Mages are low on the Totem pole. They have one good thing people care about, but their other abilities aren't special enough for people to care about them. That is why Rogues are better than Mages.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mage is the #1 DPS in the game for classic group composition (no Charming, no Velious endgame weapons). Especially before Level 55 and pre-Epic, Mage beats Rogue by a lot. The pet alone is more DPS at that gear level, and then you add in their damage shield and nukes on top of it.

Mages are great at soloing, the comparison to Rogue there is very nonsensical. Not having traditional CC on Mage can definitely be very annoying, but for grouping someone else will have Root anyway, and for soloing you just have to plan properly. Your pet is the CC, you can break many camps solo by chain petting. After broken the Water Pet has crazy regen, allowing you to maximize your DPS by not having to keep casting new pets and instead use the mana on damage spells. In the period of the game before melee gear gets really good, a Mage on their own could grind through more MOBs than a trio of Warrior + Cleric + Wizard. The pet is better DPS than a Warrior and its regen is like having a dedicated healer already, and Mage damage shield + nuke together is more efficient than Wizard nuke.



This is NOT true, lol. Although it depends on exact era and context. The hybrids improve a lot in Velious. And in general SK can get to some camps faster because of Feign Death. But for actual ability to kill the most stuff solo, Mage beats all of those classes. By a lot. Paladin especially is very slow to kill stuff solo. Yikes!

I remember soloing places like Mistmoore graveyard as a Mage, while whole groups sat by, mad that I was able to take it all on my own. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't doubt Mages are best DPS in classic. But with this kind of question I assume Velious, because that is where this server always ends. OP did not ask "most underpowered in classic".

You misunderstood my point about Rogues. I am not saying Rogues and Mages are equal or comparable to soloing. I never said that. I am saying Mages aren't as good at soloing as other classes due to their lack of CC, which is true. Rogues are mostly group classes, so you weigh soloing lightly on them. Mages can solo better, so you weigh soloing more when considering most underpowered.

And I think SK's, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, and Wizards are better than Mages at soloing because they can do more camps via utility. Who cares how good a Mage can be at specific camps if you can't get into them, for example? Having a larger pool of camps to choose from allows more consistency when leveling. This is again assuming Velious, because that is where this server always ends.

I also would love to see video proof of your claim that a single mage could out grind a Warrior + Cleric + Wizard. I don't think this is true. And even if it was true in Classic, lets say, that is irrelevant to the question, because the question isn't "most underpowered in classic".

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And I think SK's, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, and Wizards are better than Mages at soloing because they can do more camps via utility. Who cares how good a Mage can be at specific camps if you can't get into them, for example? Having a larger pool of camps to choose from allows more consistency when leveling.

I can see your inexperience starting to show leveling different classes here on p99, hehe.

Mages do not struggle with getting into effective camps, lol. The population is quite low here, it is not hard to find stuff to keep them occupied.

Again you think utility = power. Wizards/Rangers specifically do not have this insane amount of options over a mage to effectively level just because they have more utility than a mage. I'd actually argue that they have less. There are very, very few spots a wizard can actually utilize and out perform what a mage could do. I can think of sents as a particular example in WL, but sents are really bad xp/hour. And a ranger loses a ton of options once you hit the 40s and mobs just wreck you. Fear kiting animals is extremely limited on options.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can imagine it[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The question of "most underpowered in general" breaks down if you allow all paths, because no one is going to generate that much data. There are too many assumptions about which path you can take and at what point. There is almost certainly a leveling path where a Ranger would outperform a Mage, for example. In that particular case, Ranger would be better than Mage. You would basically need to figure out all paths and see which classes get the most and best paths to determine an objective best and worst. Nobody is going to do that.

So you have to look at what each class can do, and what people end up using them for. Mages can solo and group well, and they are highly prized in raids. But remember that most Mages level to 55 and then just become a CoTH bot, where most Rogues level to 60 and play outside of Raids. This is one clear indicator of why Mages are low on the Totem pole. They have one good thing people care about, but their other abilities aren't special enough for people to care about them. That is why Rogues are better than Mages.

Echoing my previous post, I can confidently say a Ranger has less leveling paths than a mage. I know this, because I've spent many hours here leveling alts and gathering that data. Utility might help getting to a camp quicker, but once you are there and set up, and understand how it works, a mage can churn through mobs where a Ranger will either kill mobs very slowly or suffer from a lot of downtime after they do kill one.

There are plenty of mages that like to play beyond 55 and outside, coth bots are more like robots specifically created for that reason. Rogues can't solo for shit, they contribute highly to groups, but so does a mage, and they contribute highly to raids, but so does a mage. So given that mages are much, much better soloers, rogues are definitely more underpowered than them.