most underpowered class in game?

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

You would since the enchanter is clearly overpowered. In the magician's case I regard it as a basically average character, that has a strong built-in de-motivator to actually use the thing. If anything it causes the magician to get an asterisk in this type of ranking. Most of the mages I've known who've continued using their characters up to and beyond 60 did not yet have that particular spell. Some of them followed the usual trend of largely retiring the character from active use once they got it. Horrible spell!

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With respect to levels, while characters gain power with levels, their *relative* power to each other does very clearly change throughout the level spread. It's the relative power we care about in this type of discussion.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With respect to levels, while characters gain power with levels, their *relative* power to each other does very clearly change throughout the level spread. It's the relative power we care about in this type of discussion.

I agree. Mages unfortunately have a normal to above average "relative power" throughout their life, but it gets worse when they get into the higher levels due to lack of CC.

Classes like Rogues have a normal to above average "relative power" when grouping, and that should be considered more than soloing for Rogues specifically because most people know that Rogues are a grouping class. The difference is their "relative power" continues to increase as they level, and as they acquire more gear. They also don't have to worry about Pet AI problems when DPSing, as an example.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

I think the heart of why Mage's suck isn't CotH, it's that if you're not especially good at anything, you're good at nothing.

Druids actually have the same core issue: they can't do anything better than others. Solo high-level mobs? Shaman or Enchanter are better. Heal (in groups or on raids)? Clerics or Shaman do it better. Track? Rangers. Heck, even when it comes to SoW, Shaman get it before Druids!

Both Mage and Druids have things raids need (Coth/Mod Rods/Rip Sticks and PotG/Circles), so there's a reason to still play them in raids. But outside of raids, they have nothing they do best, so they wind up farming plat/gear for alts that can do something better, and then being retired.

So, I don't think CotH is to blame, it's the mediocrity of the class (well, of both classes, but Druids are less mediocre). But at the same time, it's hard to argue that a class which can do things well (but not best) is bad ... they're just boring.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the heart of why Mage's suck isn't CotH, it's that if you're not especially good at anything, you're good at nothing.

Druids actually have the same core issue: they can't do anything better than others. Solo high-level mobs? Shaman or Enchanter are better. Heal (in groups or on raids)? Clerics or Shaman do it better. Track? Rangers. Heck, even when it comes to SoW, Shaman get it before Druids!

Both Mage and Druids have things raids need (Coth/Mod Rods/Rip Sticks and PotG/Circles), so there's a reason to still play them in raids. But outside of raids, they have nothing they do best, so they wind up farming plat/gear for alts that can do something better, and then being retired.

So, I don't think CotH is to blame, it's the mediocrity of the class (well, of both classes, but Druids are less mediocre). But at the same time, it's hard to argue that a class which can do things well (but not best) is bad ... they're just boring.

Agreed. All of the best classes have specialization. Unfortunately the specialization of a Mage is at it's best when little is known about the game (summoned items). On P99 where people know everything about the game, a lot of what makes a Mage great gets lessened quite a bit. That is why other classes like Rogues end up getting boosted, because people know what is best for the P99 metas.

As I keep saying, "underpowered" does not mean bad. Mages are not bad at all.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. Mages unfortunately have a normal to above average "relative power" throughout their life, but it gets worse when they get into the higher levels due to lack of CC.

Classes like Rogues have a normal to above average "relative power" when grouping, and that should be considered more than soloing for Rogues specifically because most people know that Rogues are a grouping class. The difference is their "relative power" continues to increase as they level, and as they acquire more gear. They also don't have to worry about Pet AI problems when DPSing, as an example.

Mages are better soloers than rogues.
Mages are better in duos/trios than rogues since their pet can act as a tank and duo with other pet classes.
They're pretty much a wash in full xp groups after the rogue acquires some respective weapons.
They're both necessary in the p99 raid scene.

Mage clear winner here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mages are better soloers than rogues.
Mages are better in duos/trios than rogues since their pet can act as a tank and duo with other pet classes.
They're pretty much a wash in full xp groups after the rogue acquires some respective weapons.
They're both necessary in the p99 raid scene.

Mage clear winner here.

Except you can't put Rogues and Mages together in terms of how much they solo. People make Rogues knowing they can't solo well. Grouping gets rated more than soloing for Rogues.

And no, Mages aren't really that much better in duos/trios. Ideally you wouldn't put a mage in a duo/trio at all, there are much stronger combos. Same with Rogues.

Rogues are played much more at 60 than Mages too.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except you can't put Rogues and Mages together in terms of how much they solo. People make Rogues knowing they can't solo well. Grouping gets rated more than soloing for Rogues.

And no, Mages aren't really that much better in duos/trios. Ideally you wouldn't put a mage in a duo/trio at all, there are much stronger combos. Same with Rogues.

Rogues are played much more at 60 than Mages too.

Yes, you can put them together. That's your own made up criteria to weigh rogues differently. This isn't "let's focus on their strengths and what they were intended for". Its overall power, period.

Stop bringing other classes into the mix. Mages are much better duoers/trios too where a competent healer/tank isn't always present, they just mesh better with more classes.

Sure, rogues scale better in the raid scene at 60. But as you've pointed out, raiding is casual, and it's only a part of the game, so sorry, rogues are much more underpowered, doesn't make em bad though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, you can put them together. That's your own made up criteria to weigh rogues differently. This isn't "let's focus on their strengths and what they were intended for". Its overall power, period.

Stop bringing other classes into the mix. Mages are much better duoers/trios too where a competent healer/tank isn't always present, they just mesh better with more classes.

Sure, rogues scale better in the raid scene at 60. But as you've pointed out, raiding is casual, and it's only a part of the game, so sorry, rogues are much more underpowered, doesn't make em bad though.

The strengths of a class and what they are intended for matters. Saying a Rogue sucks because they can't solo is silly, because you see more Rogues than Mages. Obviously there is something more important than just soloing in the case of a Rogue, or you wouldn't see this trend.

Rogues can scale better than Mages at 60 outside of the raid scene. You can still get great items without heavy raiding, and you don't have to worry about AI issues when it comes to Mage pets.

The problem is Mages don't have anything going for them at higher levels other than CoTH. If you aren't planning on CoTH botting, basically every other class will give you the same options or more at 60 outside of raiding.

If you want to group, Rogues and Mages basically have the same shot of getting in, because duos/trios generally don't pick dedicated DPS classes anyway. It's better to pick classes that can fill multiple roles. And in a full group both Rogues and Mages DPS just fine.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The strengths of a class and what they are intended for matters. Saying a Rogue sucks because they can't solo is silly, because you see more Rogues than Mages. Obviously there is something more important than just soloing in the case of a Rogue, or you wouldn't see this trend.

Rogues can scale better than Mages at 60 outside of the raid scene. You can still get great items without heavy raiding, and you don't have to worry about AI issues when it comes to Mage pets.

The problem is Mages don't have anything going for them at higher levels other than CoTH. If you aren't planning on CoTH botting, basically every other class will give you the same options or more at 60 outside of raiding.

If you want to group, Rogues and Mages basically have the same shot of getting in, because duos/trios generally don't pick dedicated DPS classes anyway. It's better to pick classes that can fill multiple roles. And in a full group both Rogues and Mages DPS just fine.

I didn't say rogues suck. I said they're underpowered, that's not bad, remember? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

Rogue's lack of soloing doesn't make them suck, but it does lower their overall rating. I'd treat clerics no differently. They definitely don't suck, but it does lower their overall power rating.

Rogues dont really get anything great outside of raiding that makes them any better. They need to get epic to keep up with mage dps(pet, nukes, DS). But mage can get a water staff for their final 2 water pets, which is prob more effective than anything else a rogue can get outside raids.

Mages are great pp farmers, droga for instance. Every other class cannot give you this benefit. Wizards will go oom from like 1 mediocre mob.

Sounds like you don't duo/trio much. And why are you bringing in other classes again? Focus here on mage vs rogue. Mage pet can fit multiple roles in a duo/trio, not to mention can be resummoned at will when sufficient healing is not present. It will take most of a druids mana to heal a rogue whereas a mage can just resummon a monster pet for free basically.

Again, rogues aren't bad, just more underpowered than mages.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't say rogues suck. I said they're underpowered, that's not bad, remember? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

Rogue's lack of soloing doesn't make them suck, but it does lower their overall rating. I'd treat clerics no differently. They definitely don't suck, but it does lower their overall power rating.

Rogues dont really get anything great outside of raiding that makes them any better. They need to get epic to keep up with mage dps(pet, nukes, DS). But mage can get a water staff for their final 2 water pets, which is prob more effective than anything else a rogue can get outside raids.

Mages are great pp farmers, droga for instance. Every other class cannot give you this benefit. Wizards will go oom from like 1 mediocre mob.

Sounds like you don't duo/trio much. And why are you bringing in other classes again? Focus here on mage vs rogue. Mage pet can fit multiple roles in a duo/trio, not to mention can be resummoned at will when sufficient healing is not present. It will take most of a druids mana to heal a rogue whereas a mage can just resummon a monster pet for free basically.

Again, rogues aren't bad, just more underpowered than mages.

Unless you really like killing in Droga, being efficient at it is not a huge plus. There are plenty of other ways to make PP, and every class can solo in Droga at 60 if they want to self-farm skins/salts and whatnot.

I am bringing in other classes because the discussion is "most underpowered class overall", so that includes all classes.

The problem here is you are basically saying in poorly formed duo/trio groups Mages can do well. I am not sure why that is a huge plus, since poorly formed groups aren't going to do great anyway, whether you have a Mage or not. Plenty of other classes can do just fine in suboptimal groups too, so it doesn't make a Mage special.

To your point about Mage pets being able to tank, Rogues could tank as well if you had a group with a slower, since we are talking about weird group comps. They have much better defense skills than a Shaman, who can face tank just fine with slow. They also have two defensive discs, Counterattack Discipline and Nimble Discipline.