most underpowered class in game?

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol I agree with most of this. The only thing I disagree with is trying to rate Rogues based on their solo ability, as they are one of the few classes in the game that are really meant to be group dependent.

In that case...do you also de-emphasize other well-known weaknesses of various characters? I mean things like Clerics and solo, hybrids and raiding, etc. I haven't read the entire thread, sort of jumped in and out, so I'm not arguing, just asking if you're consistent in your approach. If so then it's just a different type of prioritization rather than necessarily right/wrong. I get where you're coming from and for experienced players that type of ranking, ignoring what nobody's going to pick a character for, might even have more value. The overall ranking including known (to us) weaknesses would be more appropriate for newcomers to the game.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In that case...do you also de-emphasize other well-known weaknesses of various characters? I mean things like Clerics and solo, hybrids and raiding, etc. I haven't read the entire thread, sort of jumped in and out, so I'm not arguing, just asking if you're consistent in your approach. If so then it's just a different type of prioritization rather than necessarily right/wrong. I get where you're coming from and for experienced players that type of ranking, ignoring what nobody's going to pick a character for, might even have more value. The overall ranking including known (to us) weaknesses would be more appropriate for newcomers to the game.

Danth

Yes. I also rank Warriors and Clerics more on their Group/Raid capabilities than solo. We aren't playing on a server where we don't know all the capabilities of the classes. Most people playing Clerics/Warriors/Rogues know that they are playing a group/raid class, so that should have a higher weight in my estimation.

The most recent census I saw:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=353063

EDIT: I did misread the census. Mages at 50 were being played more. This was during classic, which makes sense, as Mages are better in that era and Rogues are worse. But I am not looking at one specific era, as this would change the topic to "most underpowered in classic/Kunark/Velious only.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We aren't playing on a server where we don't know all the capabilities of the classes. .

We aren't, but I'm not going around asking anyone else what characters I should make, either! So I think of that type of question more in terms of the sort of newbie(ish) folks who'd ask. Difference of philosophy is all. If you want to rank the characters by how well they do the jobs that they're meant for it creates a different ranking than ranking them throughout all facts of the game, that much is for sure.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We aren't, but I'm not going around asking anyone else what characters I should make, either! So I think of that type of question more in terms of the sort of newbie(ish) folks who'd ask. Difference of philosophy is all. If you want to rank the characters by how well they do the jobs that they're meant for it creates a different ranking than ranking them throughout all facts of the game, that much is for sure.

Danth

Agreed, this is mostly for new players. I want new players to understand that a class like Mage isn't going to be as good at 60 as they are at 40. It saves people time because they know which classes lose power over time. If a player wants to play a Mage anyway, great! They are a fun class, and raids always need Mages.

Knowledge is power, so I just want people to know what they are getting into when picking Mage. They will probably just park it as a CoTH bot. And I am not saying Rogue is an amazing class either, it is low on the list too.

[Jimjam]

Excluding weaknesses of a class and comparing classes to whichever class is best in an area seems more like “what is least overpowered”, not “what is most underpowered”.

I think many of the points of discussion here are due to a difference in perspective on what defines ‘most underpowered’.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think many of the points of discussion here are due to a difference in perspective on what defines ‘most underpowered’.

Indeed. This discussion will have a lot of hidden assumptions from everybody involved. My approach is to look at how the average player actually ends up playing P99. So the focus is mostly on Solo/Group, with a minor emphasis in raid. I don't assume the average player is simply leveling a class and then quitting it immediately.

Warriors get more emphasis on raiding specifically because most players make Warriors for raiding.

Clerics and Rogues get more emphasis on Grouping because most player do not solo with Clerics and Rogues.

Mages get dinged heavily in this scenario because they are good at solo, group, and raid. But as said earlier, they don't do anything especially well, with the exception of CoTH. So the average player ends up quitting the class or making them a CoTH bot, because they realize they need a different class to do non-CoTH tasks better.

It's a tough call between Rogue and Mage, but I would say Rogues can progress more than Mages in terms of improvement, which is why people play them more at level 60. If you do decide to raid a Rogue can improve their gear and DPS. A Mage is still just going to be CoTH botting. It might have been a different story if Mage Epic was easy to get. In that case I might rate Rogues lower, since Mage Epic is a DPS improvement.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are vastly overestimating what a Mage is doing here, I am sorry. The Enchanter is doing the work, the Mage is just helping with DPS.

You are just ignoring/failing to acknowledge how useless a Rogue is in this duo, compared to a mage. It's not about finding the best Enchanter duo here. It's about saying yep, mage ability to malo & resummon pets/dps will help a lot more, the rogue wont really even be able to dps.

I have a rogue, I don't hate them. If one wants to be totally reliant, lazy, and be an end game raider, it's a solid class. They can be powerful in the right light, but just very underpowered overall as a class unfortunately.

Mages aren't way ahead, but they definitely win out vs rogues, sorry.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are just ignoring/failing to acknowledge how useless a Rogue is in this duo, compared to a mage. It's not about finding the best Enchanter duo here. It's about saying yep, mage ability to malo & resummon pets/dps will help a lot more, the rogue wont really even be able to dps.

I have a rogue, I don't hate them. If one wants to be totally reliant, lazy, and be an end game raider, it's a solid class. They can be powerful in the right light, but just very underpowered overall as a class unfortunately.

Mages aren't way ahead, but they definitely win out vs rogues, sorry.

Agree to disagree!

[Windez]

If we are excluding well known weaknesses, then mage's well known late game weakness shouldn't count against them. Like no one is picking mage for their late game prowess just like no one is picking rogue for their soloing ability.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Windez [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we are excluding well known weaknesses, then mage's well known late game weakness shouldn't count against them. Like no one is picking mage for their late game prowess just like no one is picking rogue for their soloing ability.

I disagree. A game like Everquest is about character progression. That is the primary drive to play the game other than the social aspects. A class who's flaw is they stop progressing earlier than every other class is unforgivable. The exception is if you are specifically a player who enjoys leveling a character, but never wants to play their character once they reach high 50s or level 60. I would venture that this isn't the majority of players, based on how many high level characters are playing.