ATTN: All Raiding Guilds

[Katpal]

To Pint specifically -

Divinity addressed your #1 Bold type point, train pulling, because it was consistent train pulling by the top two guilds that ended our tenure in ToV. We were repeatedly trained in every safe and unsafe spot that we attempted to kill in. We were in ToV from DAY ONE of Velious and remained there for months, despite being trained at West exit, crawling West, and crawling North. We killed named dragons there from the FIRST WEEK, so please don't presume or imply that because we aren't there now that we weren't there before or that we aren't capable of being there now. We aren't there currently because despite being consistently wiped out by other guilds train pulling, petitioning got us nowhere and nothing was done. Talking to the training guild either got us no response or a lecture about how dare we be in their path. We ultimately decided to stay out of everyone's way, stick to west exit and clear to Telk or Gozz and possibly get a shot at LTK if she spawned during our 4 hour armor farm on Sundays. The arbitrary rule that prevented us from doing that (not killing dragons in same wing you are camped in) left us no other option than to train or be trained. We chose neither and ended our run at ToV dragons in hopes that future talks would lead to a resolution.

Before the above mentioned "wing rule" was in effect, we were killing flurry drakes in north wing when Jorlleag spawned and we cleared to it and killed it. We took similar actions with Telk, Gozz and LTK. So to suggest that there is no other way that ToV can be cleared is simply incorrect.

Threatening to take any action to muscle other guilds out of a zone is nothing new to Divinity. You've already done it successfully, why not do it again?

The bottom line is that there is no reason why any guild should have a monopoly on a zone just to facilitate them being able to train pull their mobs without consequence simply because it's easier and takes less time and certainly not at the expense of another guild that is interested in armor farming or contesting dragons.

I have mostly stayed out of the discussion in this thread, opting to have my say at the summit tomorrow and I would like to think that there is a solution that we can work out amongst ourselves, but you simply can't make the kind of statements you're making and expect positive results.

-Katlin, Divinity

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Taking the discussion of Variance Reduction and Increased Sim Repops off the table removes the absolute most important / viable solutions to resolving a huge number of issues we have with our raid scene here Sirken. Are these really things that Rogean will not touch? As you said, everyone agrees it would be a good thing.

--I realize its not a topic for tomorrows summit, but can you push Rogean to give you the capability or automate sim repops, as it would make your (and every raid guild on this server's) life far easier.

As Chest stated earlier, any other rule changes will simply be bandaids onto a festering wound.

We can surely talk about revamping some rules to be brought up to date, but that will not reduce the number of petitions, trains, or the concession scene much at all. Those are all issues that arise out of too many top-end guilds and not enough content being up simultaneously forcing them to spread out.

Repops and variance do not have an affect on petty kite / stall rules and training.

[Daldaen]

Yes they do.

Reduced Variance = Mobs stacking up and spawning simultaneously
Increased Repops = All Mobs spawning simultaneously

When mobs are spawning simultaneously, guilds will spread out and go for different targets and not be all piled on top of each other contesting the exact same ones every time. This will lead to reduced trains / stall calls because guilds are busy killing their own mobs.

Again, I am not trying to say the stall, kite, concede, or training rules should not be revisited. Quite to the contrary. But the fact of the matter is, if Sirken really wants the raid scene to be improved and to see less issues with these topics, Sim Repops and Reduced Variance are the clear gateways to achieving that goal of making his life, and raiding life here in general more favorable for everyone involved.

[Detoxx]

Daldaen, Sirken has clearly stated this meeting has nothing to do with either of those topics. There are other ways that grown adults should be able to come to agreements here, please focus on that instead of just reiterating the obvious.

[Daldaen]

There are a lot of things adults should be able of doing that they seem incapable of managing on this server like remaining calm and remembering its just a video game.

It just baffles me that somehow the most obvious solution to so many issues is just outright off the table when it is universally favored and the most classic solution among all of them.

I know what raid rules I'd like to bring up to be reviewed for this but Rogean really should consider a way to farm out sim repopping to an automated system or to trusted GMs as it will make their lives far easier. This thread was merely an announcement for the summit, what we discuss within will likely not have a huge amount of baring on how the summit proceeds. Thus why we are getting together to discuss things.

[Pint]

Originally Posted by Pan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pint, there's no doubt that you guys are far more experienced with the mechanics of those zones and the problems that they create. And our input will be limited and based on MUCH less experience than yours. I'm under no illusions that way.

And I think we all share the goal and values of reducing the sock and having a sane raid environment.

And, for the record, I'm not necessarily against the idea of "train pulling" if that's how it shakes out.

On some level, I don't really care what the ruleset ends up being as long as it's:
1) communicated
2) enforced
3) enforced consistently

We can adapt our playstyle to whatever the owners of the p99 box dictate.

That said, part of your advocacy is based on the playstyle that you've adopted. You state:

It's probably worth acknowledging that VP trash repops in 6 minutes and tov takes 72 minutes. I also don't want to gloss over the fact that your guilds would be happy to take a few hours to kill 1 dragon and find that rewarding, it would be rewarding and fun. The problem is that the larger guilds probably wouldn't be patient enough to wait you out and additionally depending on the dragon your multi hour long pursuit puts you in the way of the other 14 potential dragons.

Not wanting to be patient on your part is a choice. Should I advocate patience in the meeting, that's my choice - and has nothing to do with my understanding of the intricacies of the pulls and mechanics there. But you are NOT, logically, ethically, conceptually, or any other -lly more right than I in your position. They're just different. And that's part of the reason for the discussion.

Hypothetically, they could say "fuck it" and decide to tether the nameds in NToV and delete the accounts of trainers. And we'd (collectively) deal with it. Or, on the other end, they could say, "fuck it...NToV is a CSR-free zone, you ingrates" and we'd deal with that, too.

But don't conflate a playstyle preference with knowledge of the zone. They're two different issues completely. On the latter, you're miles ahead. On the former, opinions will differ (and be largely irrelevant once any changes that come out of this are codified).

Cloki man, that is too many words to say 2 very basic things, trim it down for us in the future please! Your point about communication and enforcement +1'd. Your point about patience is noted but II have to be realistic when I approach these things, if a dragon pops at 3am on Sunday and my guys can kill it in 20 minutes and get back to sleep then all of the high minded moralistic reasoning in the world isn't going to convince them to spend an extra 2 hours to accomplish the end goal.

[Pint]

You guys are still not approaching the issues, you all know what's going to happen tmrw when 8 people sit down to discuss all of these issues without any real pre negotiations to understand each others issues and helping each other understand what everyone else is and isn't missing. At this point youre going to start off with train pulling and never get past that discussion, 3 hrs into that argument we're going to end up with some patchwork fix that hasn't been thought through or no fix at all.

[Pint]

we ought to set up a bda style rotation where you can be added to the tov mob list if you can kill sontalak around the clock, i think aftermath could get behind that.

[Sirken]

you will need Discord on your computer, PM me for the link to join