Stalling on engages

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hyperbole, whee!

I have yet to engage about these escalation of tactics so that's why I'm bringing it up. As a representative of your respective guild I assume your position is that your tactics were completely plausible, at least I'm gleaning this position based on how you seem to be approaching the conversation.

So pretty please with sugar on top can we stop putting two fucking people on every fucking spawn point?

I wouldn't mind seeing 1 tracker per target and everyone else at WC =P

[arsenalpow]

All the class R guilds work out their issues. We have a board dedicated to communication within our class. TMO and IB were trading petitions/fraps and negotiating early release from suspensions.

Decreeing that we're supposed to work with each other to come to an amicable solution is a noble idea but if all the class R guilds can work out our issues and TMO/IB can't play nicely, what makes you think that we'll all just figure out these issues together?

TMO's contention is that it wasn't really a pure stall. Someone immediately grabbed FTE after the other guy got DTed, then someone else got charmed, then someone else flopped, then charm broke and that guy ended up with the final FTE. So for the entire duration of Inny spawning there were 3-4 monks herp derping around jostling for FTE while the zerg rushed up to his room. Please please please explain to me how that's any semblance of competition.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Derub can you not cherry pick an RnF comment to make a point. I posted in the raid discussion to get a response this allowing anyone else to comment as needed. We can attempt to work this out but nothing in RnF could ever lead to a productive result.

This comment was 'cherry picked' because it's not the first time something like this has been requested (IE, straight to Rogean, because GM's answers aren't valid) See:

Originally Posted by arsenalpow

Admin response desired.

But thanks for cherry picking one small section from RnF of my very valid, relevant, and constructive post.

Originally Posted by phiren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry -- but the only way is to have the GMs involved. Guilds will never agree to better/cleaner raiding tactics and actually follow them unless there are ACTUAL penalties involved.

~Phiren
Azure Guard

I never said we wouldn't get involved, or that we wouldn't enforce player made agreements - but the agreements themselves need to be worked out among the guilds. Only in situations where every other possible option has been explored should people be bringing issues to the CSR staff.

That being said, it is absolutely possible for the players to mediate their own disputes. If you feel you may have accidentally trained another guild, if there's even the possibility that you screwed up their engage, you can simply give them that mob as a free engage. If you see a guild breaking a rule, instead of immediately bringing it to us in hopes of getting the other guild suspended, it would be far better for the two guilds in question to work out their own deal.

Everyone in this forum is a guild officer, in long established guilds, in one of the most prolific open world raid environments in any MMORPG still up and running today. We are all adults, and we all can offer creative solutions to difficult problems. There is little reason why a dispute should need to be brought to our attention except in the most dire of circumstances.

To reflect this attitude and change of pace, we will be declining to intervene in any situation where a significant amount of discussion hasn't gone on between the two parties in question. This does not mean a few posts on a message board, or a 20 minute text conversation, or even a one hour phone call. We (the GM's) often spend many hours or even days going over disputes in order to reach a decision. We feel it's fair to ask that the players do the same.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Decreeing that we're supposed to work with each other to come to an amicable solution is a noble idea but if all the class R guilds can work out our issues and TMO/IB can't play nicely, what makes you think that we'll all just figure out these issues together?

Compromise. Negotiation. Again, there is no reason why these issues can't be worked out sans GM involvement. It's easy to simply state "well, WE'RE trying to work things out, but THEY'RE being unreasonable!!" without actually evaluating what it is you've tried to accomplish and what you're asking for. Both sides need to make legitimate attempts to see each issue from all angles and viewpoints. This is essential to being ale to work together properly. If all you can do is make demands based on your side of the issue, this will never work. You guys will learn how to get along, mediate your own disputes, and work out your own agreements.

In negotiation or dispute, it is always the other side who's being unreasonable, not cooperating, or not trying hard enough. From your viewpoint, your requests are appropriate and fair, in their viewpoint, your requests are ridiculous and out of hand. This is the nature of how these discussions work. Everyone is going to have to come down off their high horse for this to be effective and make raiding more enjoyable for everyone.

We are not asking anything of the players that the staff has not already done. You guys (all of you) will actually have to make real attempts to (oh shit) get along and communicate. This may not always be easy, it may not always be enjoyable, but it absolutely is going to happen.

Once again, we have full confidence we are not asking anything you are incapable of accomplishing, nor are we asking anything of you that we would not be willing to do ourselves. The CSR staff is now here as a last resort in raid disputes and policy. If everyone does not want to put forth a real effort in getting along and making this happen, we can guarantee you will not like our alternative solution to a given situation. It's in everyone's best interests to lower their expectations, be open to suggestions, and come up with creative solutions to the problems the raid scene faces.

Have some faith in yourselves. You can do it.

[arsenalpow]

Again, it was cherry picked from RnF. I can start quoting some Alarti nonsense and it still won't be constructive to the conversation.

So far TMO's stance has been "sack up Class R" so I'm thinking there's a chasm between our two positions. That was the whole point of class divisions in the first place, our two playstyles are fundamentally different. I don't speak for the entirety of class R but I'd suspect that their notion of competition would mean trackers aren't face tracking and engaging raid targets. That the competition itself should be a race and not a fastest javelin in the west situation.

[Derubael]

Again, thanks for cherry picking and completely ignoring the rest of the message. Simply quoting a post one of your guild members made in RnF does not invalidate my message, it's points, or it's merits. I will assume your narrow minded comments are simply a side effect of trying to come up with more effective ways of mediating disputes, creating more open lines of communication, and brainstorming creative solutions to problems between all the guilds, so that we can all flourish in a better, more cooperative raid environment!

A more appropriate response here would have been "Thank you, we will do everything in our power to make this happen, we greatly appreciate that you guys have faith in us and our ability to ensure a more enjoyable raid scene for everyone. It's great that you are taking the time to put up that wall-of-text on how the CSR staff feels about raid disputes moving forward. We here at BDA are sure that future FFA mob disputes and agreements can be fully player driven."

I say this because we here at Project 1999 CSR are fully confident that BDA can help facilitate player driven dispute resolutions on FFA mobs without the need for the staff to get involved. We greatly appreciate your cooperation and understanding moving forward, and we will do everything in our power to make everyone cooperate and have a more entertaining open raid environment for all.

I extend my sincere thanks to you, Chest, for taking initiative and planning to spear-head this effort to create a friendlier raid environment among the Project 1999 Raiding Guilds!

[arsenalpow]

How about this, we each knock off the unproductive snark and address the issue at hand. This will allow me to explain the fundamental differences between the two classes and it will save you 10 minutes of crafting a response that I don't even read.

I'll give it the 'ol college try and talk to TMO leadership right here in this thread, they just have to post. I await their thought out position regarding this situation.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and it will save you 10 minutes of crafting a response that I don't even read.

actually how about this, instead of acting like a cocky, spoiled, little brat, you appreciate the fact that a staff member actually took the time to put 10 minutes into giving you a sincere response, and then you reciprocate that good deed by taking a few minutes to actually read it, before just clicking reply and smashing buttons on the keyboard.

<3
Sirks

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

actually how about this, instead of acting like a cocky, spoiled, little brat, you appreciate the fact that a staff member actually took the time to put 10 minutes into giving you a sincere response, and then you reciprocate that good deed by taking a few minutes to actually read it, before just clicking reply and smashing buttons on the keyboard.

<3
Sirks

Seriously? Can we cut the fucking trolling? Please highlight the genuine portions Derub's post. If you want to maintain a sense of decorum in this forum then at least give a modicum of respect to the people participating in the discussion (which apparently is only me so far).

Nothing cocky or spoiled about it. I genuinely would like to hammer out a player made agreement with class C to right this ship but in the history of this server there's never been an agreement of that caliber. You're basically asking us to cure cancer. Part of the initial agreement as handed down by Rogean was that this FFA cycle would foster competition. Pullers on spawn points rolling the dice isn't competition.

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seriously? Can we cut the fucking trolling? Please highlight the genuine portions Derub's post. If you want to maintain a sense of decorum in this forum then at least give a modicum of respect to the people participating in the discussion (which apparently is only me so far).

Nothing cocky or spoiled about it. I genuinely would like to hammer out a player made agreement with class C to right this ship but in the history of this server there's never been an agreement of that caliber. You're basically asking us to cure cancer. Part of the initial agreement as handed down by Rogean was that this FFA cycle would foster competition. Pullers on spawn points rolling the dice isn't competition.

I haven't heard any objections about this amongst the Class-C at this point. I would imagine Class-R should act to the level of Class-C when assembling for FFA targets.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seriously? Can we cut the fucking trolling? Please highlight the genuine portions Derub's post. If you want to maintain a sense of decorum in this forum then at least give a modicum of respect to the people participating in the discussion (which apparently is only me so far).

Nothing cocky or spoiled about it. I genuinely would like to hammer out a player made agreement with class C to right this ship but in the history of this server there's never been an agreement of that caliber. You're basically asking us to cure cancer. Part of the initial agreement as handed down by Rogean was that this FFA cycle would foster competition. Pullers on spawn points rolling the dice isn't competition.

not only am i not trolling you in the slightest bit, i'm also not going to read Deru's post to you. go get a drink, scroll up, and read it yourself.

<3
Sirks