Player above server rules?

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by xdrcfrx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

if it were just about the competition, people would have found more interesting ways to compete for things than zerging through trash in ToV, or footracing for FTE for every.single.mob. There's lots of stuff where, with just a little bit of thought, some actual creative competition could be undertaken. Key to this would be, like the golem race agreement, the winner taking most but not all of the winnings. Lots of things people could try that would be fun, that would allow for a variety of different modes of competition, that would open content up for more players, and yes that would distribute pixels differently than under the current status quo.

I don't think you'd see a ton of interest in such a change in dynamic from many because they'd rather take a chance at winning everything in a zero-sum game, than risk losing out on potential pixels that would to to a runner up. And/or many prefer the thrill of denying their rivals accomplishing anything (which, in fairness, would cut against the argument that it's really about the pixels!)

The guys who harp so hard on competition don't actually care strictly just about loot, its true. When they say competition a lot of readers don't realize (and some of them might not be conveying it) that the important part is who the loser is as much as who won.

So like if FR/AG gets a Vulak its true that for many of the old timers/ex-AM the loot from Vulak takes a backseat to making Riot the losers. That's the real end goal of the competition.

If they can beat their arch enemy Riot then those people on the other side that Twochain was just describing, they waited all week, then all the NToV windows in the cycle, just to watch their chances of a Vulak drop snatched away for another week. AND...if their competition is strong enough, they have no actual assurance that their guild will prevail again next week.

So those things create real stakes in the game and real emotions over the limited endgame resources. It creates an environment where, as we've famously heard so much on RnF, you can deny your enemies pixels. The denial in a high stakes world is more important than the racing or who won it or even the coveted loots. Although yes of course they are also quite loot hungry too.

While I personally agree with you about the golem agreement, simply slapping a race onto a soft rotation like that doesn't provide that high stakes game of "deny the enemy" anymore so those dudes are never going to go for it on a larger scale. It only made it to reality because of the low overall value you get from golem loots most of the time vs. time invested in tracking and racing for them. It was an easy choice for every guild, but even so we now see Freedom would rather pull out of it and play spoiler. Because they don't do that zero-sum game.

The more you make agreements and rotations the more your enemy can shrug it off and say well better luck next time. Aegis is never going to win the first golem racing AG or Riot on a random Saturday at noon. But the next slot is a different opponent, maybe the spawn lines up better, maybe you have more people, and if nothing else maybe you get better loot if you got no epic off this one. You leave feeling like you at least you did win something and have more to look forward to instead of leaving feeling like a loser, and that its not what the guys insisting on competition are interested in seeing happen.

[Ruhtar]

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only person I have ever heard of getting permanently banned from playing on p99 is Alleriah... Who was busted 2x for RMT.

Considering first offense for intentionally training is usually 1 week, probably 1 month for a raid offense (I can't remember how much time Riptoes got but I think it was a month?), and boxing offenses is usually a 2 week ban as a first offense and perma ban of the accounts for a second offense.... Punishment seems right in line. And we're raid suspended for a week.

Most of what you wrote in this post was typical Forsaken/AM/XxGhxstxX/Freedom dog shit, but you're just straight up lying here.

Hundreds of people have been permanently banned. Unless you're referring to an IP ban, which doesn't really do much for people who were probably boxing anyway. Not entirely sure on your 1-week first offense for training, but boxing offenses are 1-month for first offense and perma banned for second.

Excusing the lying to GMs and excusing any other infraction that I'm sure Furoar has racked up over the years, he should be suspended for at least 5 weeks. How long was he suspended for?

[Twochain]

Originally Posted by Ruhtar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most of what you wrote in this post was typical Forsaken/AM/XxGhxstxX/Freedom dog shit, but you're just straight up lying here.

Hundreds of people have been permanently banned. Unless you're referring to an IP ban, which doesn't really do much for people who were probably boxing anyway. Not entirely sure on your 1-week first offense for training, but boxing offenses are 1-month for first offense and perma banned for second.

Excusing the lying to GMs and excusing any other infraction that I'm sure Furoar has racked up over the years, he should be suspended for at least 5 weeks. How long was he suspended for?

Permanent Character Ban is not the same thing as "Never allowed to play on p99 again"


uhhh also im pretty sure he's suspended until jan 1... so 5 weeks. lmao

[tankh]

What makes me laugh is that you get told not to post anything about freedom but then you get freedom members like beefbroc posting crap in UN general chat but nothing happens. Seems their new guild name should be <Teflon>.

[xdrcfrx]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The guys who harp so hard on competition don't actually care strictly just about loot, its true. When they say competition a lot of readers don't realize (and some of them might not be conveying it) that the important part is who the loser is as much as who won.

So like if FR/AG gets a Vulak its true that for many of the old timers/ex-AM the loot from Vulak takes a backseat to making Riot the losers. That's the real end goal of the competition.

If they can beat their arch enemy Riot then those people on the other side that Twochain was just describing, they waited all week, then all the NToV windows in the cycle, just to watch their chances of a Vulak drop snatched away for another week. AND...if their competition is strong enough, they have no actual assurance that their guild will prevail again next week.

So those things create real stakes in the game and real emotions over the limited endgame resources. It creates an environment where, as we've famously heard so much on RnF, you can deny your enemies pixels. The denial in a high stakes world is more important than the racing or who won it or even the coveted loots. Although yes of course they are also quite loot hungry too.

While I personally agree with you about the golem agreement, simply slapping a race onto a soft rotation like that doesn't provide that high stakes game of "deny the enemy" anymore so those dudes are never going to go for it on a larger scale. It only made it to reality because of the low overall value you get from golem loots most of the time vs. time invested in tracking and racing for them. It was an easy choice for every guild, but even so we now see Freedom would rather pull out of it and play spoiler. Because they don't do that zero-sum game.

The more you make agreements and rotations the more your enemy can shrug it off and say well better luck next time. Aegis is never going to win the first golem racing AG or Riot on a random Saturday at noon. But the next slot is a different opponent, maybe the spawn lines up better, maybe you have more people, and if nothing else maybe you get better loot if you got no epic off this one. You leave feeling like you at least you did win something and have more to look forward to instead of leaving feeling like a loser, and that its not what the guys insisting on competition are interested in seeing happen.

TL;dr: it's not about the competition, it's just about spite? If that's the case, why all the QQ over everyone thinking they're a bunch of dicks? It's like they are offended that people would dare come to that conclusion.

[Ruhtar]

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Permanent Character Ban is not the same thing as "Never allowed to play on p99 again"


uhhh also im pretty sure he's suspended until jan 1... so 5 weeks. lmao

IP ban is a "never allowed to play on p99 again" ban. And again, pretty easy to get around as they were probably already doing that.

So you're saying 5 weeks without even mentioning boxing? So 9 weeks is more like it? And that's assuming he's never been caught boxing before.

You're doing a great job.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by xdrcfrx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TL;dr: it's not about the competition, it's just about spite? If that's the case, why all the QQ over everyone thinking they're a bunch of dicks? It's like they are offended that people would dare come to that conclusion.

Spite is oversimplifying it. There's a fundamental culture of opposition rather than any sense of cooperation with competing guilds, so something like the golem rotation is far too friendly to gain a more widespread foothold.

[Benisato]

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont' think i suggested fur should be punished less because of who he is. I said Fur's suspension is right in line with other people's suspensions in the past for the same offense. If anything, in terms of GM punishment, I THINK fur's was worse than the other two people I named.

I'm saying it shouldn't be held against him forever, because it was out of character. In my opinion. That's all.

I try to avoid these RnF posts, but perhaps this isn't something people have seen..

Out of character... when he had just trained Riot during an Eashen fight the week before the top three guilds got Raid banned? Only 20 Freedom AG in zone, the mob was already engaged, the mob was dying and he was salty.. There was no "Riot Offense" train, etc to call this a repercussion for. This is just Furoars, (and potentially Crowns), acting like children because they didn't get to kill a dragon. They tried to train in attempt to stall to get more people on.

https://youtu.be/UdeYLHQwQlo

In this video Eshen is to the right.. He was looking down the Hall he just ran in from waiting for the train, and sitting on our cleric. When the train came in he was ready and watching for it and flopped. You can also hear the surprise of our kiters as a "Random Wurm" appears from no where dragging a big big train towards us.


A clear violation of the PnP...

You may not operate a guild that habitually violates these rules.
Disciplinary issues involving guilds may be addressed with the entire guild. Guilds whose members habitually violate these rules may be issued guild warnings, and can even be permanently disbanded.

Guild Leaders and/or officers may be held accountable for any actions of their guild members, in addition to any other actions that may be taken. It is therefore the responsibility of the guild leadership to ensure that all guild members abide by these rules.

Why make these rules if they are not to be followed/enforced?

[Loke]

Originally Posted by tankh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What makes me laugh is that you get told not to post anything about freedom but then you get freedom members like beefbroc posting crap in UN general chat but nothing happens. Seems their new guild name should be <Teflon>.

You realize you're posting in a 20+ page thread that is not only ignoring their request, but also GM bashing (implying Furoar got a light punishment because he donates - e.g. they take bribes). But Beef posting a spicy meme in UN general chat is the real ignored injustice here...[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Twochain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

While there has been numerous times over the years that whatever guild I was in at the time gave away tov loot for free (knight rots lets be honest), giving away shit for free would definitely break the spirit of newer raiders who have been saving their dkp for that particular item. But you would be surprised how many people are really just in it for the fun of it. Take a look at legday's post? About the 8 man VP snipe team. You think Legday gave a shit that he looted a PD robe on a wizard he hasn't played in 4 years and will probably never play again? Naw. Most of the established raiders on this server don't really give a shit about loot that much. I have a bunch of plat and a bunch of dkp, but I really don't need anything else. Sure, would it be cool to have a vulak robe on my enchanter? Hell yes. But my monk already has an abashis. And my enc is OP as is. Doesn't really matter.


NOW let me explain this DESERVED and EARNED pixels debacle. Yes, that's something that's floated around a lot. Certain hard core players are turned off to the idea of giving away free Vulaks. You know why? Because there's always 30+ on this server who have been saving DKP for over a year to get a Gharns. Or an Abashi. Or a Robe. I know two people who are literally one vulak piece away from being completely BiS. And it's why they still play this game. And it's been 1..2...3 years and they STILL haven't been able to acquire that last item. And then, to cap it off, you get stuck in Vulak prison. You can't bid any of your DKP for cool stuff for your alts, (or a ST key for any of your characters *cough*), because you have to save your dkp in order to stay #1 on the leader boards in DKP so that IF THIS IS THE TIME IT ACTUALLY DROPS, they can finally get their item after literal years. And from there it's a badge of honor. People know I raided years to get my abashi. (I got super fucking lucky getting it, I was top monk dkp for all of like 16 hours and it was my first time being on top ever, and I WAS NOT pacing to keep up with slaysh/reep etc, super small window for me to get it)

Boo fucking hoo.