Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[Troxx]

I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread

I appreciate that you actually wrote a post without trolling this time. It's been a long time. It is a step in the right direction! I sincerely hope the trend continues.

The core thrust of your argument seems to be FSI provides a small bonus. This is true. You agree that Iksar/Troll Regen at 60 with Torpor also provides a small bonus. This is also true.

The simple difference between FSI and Iksar/Troll Regen at level 60 with Torpor is FSI provides a significant boost to survivability when it does trigger. This is because damage spikes are the biggest threat to a Torpor Shaman, not consistent DPS that is mitigated with Torpor. I think you will agree that taking hundreds of damage from an unslowed mob is a problem.

Iksar/Troll Regeneration provides a very small boost to survivability in every fight, but the chance of 80 HP causing you to survive the first minute of a fight is basically zero.

I believe the flaw in your thinking is you posit that Iksar/Troll Regeneration is less situational, therefore it is better. This idea has never made sense to me, and I have seen it a lot in this specific debate. You have no evidence to suggest that Iksar/Troll Regeneration activating more often is providing any specific benefit.

You can math out precisely how much HP you get with Iksar/Troll Regeneration per hour, assuming you are never at 100% HP. No matter how you try to slice it, 4800 HP is 3-4 extra Torpors per hour. This is 1.5-2 minutes of saved recovery time at best. Realistically it is probably half that since Regeneration isn't active at 100% HP. A Torpor Shaman is at 100% HP out of combat, you agree with me here as well.

If you want to disprove my argument, you need to explain why 1 minute of recovery time per hour is superior to increasing your survivability significantly in a fight with FSI, which can save you a lot more than 1 minute in terms of time. Consistency isn't a guarantee of superiority.

As for your insistence on leveling speed, everybody including myself has already agreed that Regeneration allows you to level faster than FSI. Leveling speed is not the metric used in Min/Max, however, and I am specifically discussing Min/Max. If leveling speed was the default definition for Min/Max, Human Monks would be considered to be better than Iksar Monks in most discussions, because a Human Monk doesn't have the XP penalty. Same with Necromancers.

If you ask people and look at the forums, you will see most people agree that Iksar Monks/Necromancers are superior. This is regardless of the fact that Iksars level slower. There is clearly a default definition of Min/Max most people agree upon, because they use it to come to the exact same conclusion. A lot of people probably don't think about it, or have ever tried to put it into words. But the results speak for themselves. The definition of Min/Max is not tied to leveling speed. The default definition is what race has the best racial in the endgame. Iksar clearly wins in the case of Monks/Necromancers, as they still rely on passive regeneration in the endgame.

[fortior]

pearls before swine, troxx

[Troxx]

If, on character creation, a player could choose one (and only one) race specific perk. And assuming that whatever class or race you could choose ... you could choose any other race perk.

-99.9999% of characters would chose regen
-cause innate regen in classic EQ (p99) is OP

I don't think that on any class i have played i would choose FSI over regen.

Regen > FSI

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If, on character creation, a player could choose one (and only one) race specific perk. And assuming that whatever class or race you could choose ... you could choose any other race perk.

-99.9999% of characters would chose regen
-cause innate regen in classic EQ (p99) is OP

I don't think that on any class i have played i would choose FSI over regen.

Regen > FSI

Innate Regeneration is OP on most classes. No disagreement. I would only pick FSI on Shamans to be honest. I prefer Troll Shadowknights and Troll Warriors. I have a 60 Troll Shadowknight myself! I played a Troll Warrior on live. I also think Male Trolls are the best model in the game, due to their great armor graphics and superior animations. For some reason the Troll animator did a better job than the animators on the other races. It isn't like I have some strange Ogre bias. Shamwowi is the only Ogre I have ever made. If anything I have a Troll bias.

I also agree with this statement:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

The logic used to compare Vindi BP and Fungi Tunic is the same logic used to compare FSI and Innate Regeneration. Vindi BP's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Fungi Tunic's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman. This is why FSI is the best racial for Shamans in terms of Min/Maxing. FSI's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Innate Regeneration's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Innate Regeneration is OP on most classes.

Glad we agree!

Regen is OP
Regen is more OP for a class that converts hp to mana
FSI is rarely a factor ever, much less to any game altering degree

Troll/iksar shaman > the rest

Yay!

Thread is over.

FSI almost as overrated as JBB!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Glad we agree!

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp

If you agree that Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic on a Torpor Shaman, you agree that FSI is better than Innate Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman.

The logic used to compare Vindi BP and Fungi Tunic is the same logic used to compare FSI and Innate Regeneration. Vindi BP's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Fungi Tunic's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman. This is why FSI is the best racial for Shamans in terms of Min/Maxing. FSI's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Innate Regeneration's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troll/iksar shaman > the rest

FSI almost as overrated as JBB!

Incorrect.

[fortior]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If, on character creation, a player could choose one (and only one) race specific perk. And assuming that whatever class or race you could choose ... you could choose any other race perk.

-99.9999% of characters would chose regen
-cause innate regen in classic EQ (p99) is OP

I don't think that on any class i have played i would choose FSI over regen.

Regen > FSI

I would pick gnome vision on every character

#2 would be racial sneak on a class without sneak

#3 would be regen for me

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would pick gnome vision on every character

#2 would be racial sneak on a class without sneak

#3 would be regen for me

I do agree with you on sneak, forgot about that one. Being able to vendor anywhere regardless of faction is wonderful.

[fortior]

it's not just faction, but a lot of quests work with indifferent faction as well, the big one being turning in dain's head to KT which is a huge hassle if you're not intending to be giant factioned (I'm currently on this annoying grind)

you can also use sneak together with FD for trickery and shenanigans, though shaman only gets 2 FD charges so it wouldn't be as good. it would work for a necro or SK though.

IMO gnome vision is an actual racial perk that matters and racial sneak kind of is, but it's more just a really nice convenience that you can't get another way. regen is nice on melees since it stacks with fungi (not impacted by the worn regen cap) and I guess on necros without a vp staff. everything else is whatever. on a fresh server, big races have a huge stat advantage for martial classes, like at green launch the adage was 'if it can be an ogre, pick ogre', but that was because ogres start with twice the strength of other races in an era with +3 str items.