Paladin stats & race

[Troxx]

White knight is a fool.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

White knight is a fool.

I think he's just beholden to a decision he made. I messed up on my SK way back when and put the points into int. I so wanted to show it was a good decision that I even solo'd the forglok king at level 50(in vanilla with bronze armor) to prove it was the best decision. And I only just barely killed him and it did, in fact, take every bit of my mana. Felt good but truth was it was a pointless exhibition.

[Jimjam]

He's not wrong that it is easy to cap effective AC for 51+ mobs in KC.

I'm curious if he has had any success tanking guardian wurms or pillar dragons yet.

[White_knight]

Mixed bag of responses: some get it, others more resistant (less willing to open up to theory craft, holding on to their concepts that knights need to adhere to max ac/hp)

If you're building a Knight specifically to tank g-wurms knock yourself out, that again is a specific case of tanking.

Enwei's comments are spot on. You should all read his post. The way that he explains that hybrids are a supportive tank role for raids is spot on. Trying to compete with tanks that kick our arse in all aspects of raid tanking is kind of pointless. Knights dont need all that ac/hp to do their job effectively so after a point it becomes less effective to stack it.

If you're objective is to tank gwurms go knock yourself out: farm all the ac/hp you want, you will never tank as well as a warrior. And you can insert all other specific cases in here that people seem to get hung up on.

Much like Enwei says, if you buff to the 1/3 or 1/4 of you that is the hybrid component your supportive role in raids, and your primary role in groups as tank will improve.

You dont need 1400 ac to do seb/chardok/velks/sg groups, what you need is more mana to be extra effective in your role when needed.

I think what alot of people suffer from is sympton of denial: not willing to accept that hybrid tanks just arent there to tank what their ideology wants them to think about their class.

(How do I know? I have a 1400ac Paladin)

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Ennewi

It's fair to say that since Warriors are the tank for endgame Velious raid content

I haven't played in a few months (I like my EQ addiction intermittent) but the orb/mallet nerf should have made Knights clearly superior for tanking most ToV/Kunark NPCs, and the rooted Lords and Ladies should have increased the amount of random drakes and wurms everyone is fighting. Together these should lead to a lot more Knight tanking. Have the players failed to adapt here?

Originally Posted by White_Knight

So congratulations you saved your healer 400pts of extra healing on a conventional mob in this extreme case of MAX hitting everytime.

Have you estimated how much extra downtime is caused by that healing, though? What if your group is heavily offensively oriented, say PAL/SHM/MNK?

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

White knight is a fool.

I disagree. His conclusions make perfect sense: if you are tanking <50 XP mobs and you have a cleric with clarity healing you, HP and AC don't matter because your cleric is half asleep anyway. I question those assumptions!

[Jimjam]

I don't think people build a knight to tank gwurms; they build to tank the best they are likely to be called upon to tank, and accept that doing so may result in small losses of efficiency elsewhere.

Note I don't mention gwurms or pillars as an obscure side line activity; they are the two non XP activities that I'm likely to be invited to or decide to organise.

@raev you mention sacrificing hp/AC might increase downtime, but there is almost a level synergy there: Wightknight's philosophy requires more medtime to get back to full mana anyway [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think people build a knight to tank gwurms; they build to tank the best they are likely to be called upon to tank, and accept that doing so may result in small losses of efficiency elsewhere.

Note I don't mention gwurms or pillars as an obscure side line activity; they are the two non XP activities that I'm likely to be invited to or decide to organise.

@raev you mention sacrificing hp/AC might increase downtime, but there is almost a level synergy there: Wightknight's philosophy requires more medtime to get back to full mana anyway [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

I think you're missing the entire point: so let me explain in Layman's terms:

The point isn't just to have a larger mana pool, it's to have a larger mana pool to be expended when needed.

i.e sacrificing a potential larger mana pool for what essentially would be a small bump in tanking capacity. That 1400 AC is useless when you're OOM because you have 2k mana pool, and your healer is OOM. The difference between having 1200ac and 1400 ac on a normal tiered dungeon mobs isn't going to send your healer bust on mana.

Having a larger mana pool ALSO extends the duration you can stay in the fight when it's quite mana intensive, i.e chanter dies, and you have 6 mobs in camp and you're rooting and poping off heals to keep everyone topped off while tanking.

Now do you see the point?

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have you estimated how much extra downtime is caused by that healing, though? What if your group is heavily offensively oriented, say PAL/SHM/MNK?

It's a good question.

You're not looking at an massive difference in damage reduction from 1200ac - 1400 ac on normal tiered mobs, it's not a 700ac -1200ac type comparison.

Ultimately a larger mana pooled Paladin would benefit the SHM/PAL/MNK trio way more than a high AC Paladin as you'd be burning more mana CCing, and stunning mobs till they are slowed to reduce incoming damage taken.

Mana regen is a problem, always will be for Knights who burn through mana, but regardless of the how much mana you have there will always be a period where you arse is on the ground medding, or you're relying on candy buffs to get that blue bar back up.

[Troxx]

Deep mana pockets help on raid targets where you won’t be tanking anyways. In this scenario deeper pockets means more heals; something we do quite well both on ourselves and what we have to offer others. Don’t get me wrong I’m a fan of paladin mana and personally prioritize it above stamina. But ac? No. As has already been stated, we’re tanks. Damage mitigation is critical to how well we do our job every single time we get hit.

In most content knights are not limited by mana pool - it’s mana recovery. Deeper pockets just means it takes you longer to fill back up.

TLDR? You’ve made some pretty terrible decisions with regards to specific armor slots. Str/wis 0 ac mask is chief among them.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Crystal_Spider_Eyes

A bit less wisdom but also 8ac 35hp/mana

I’m not dogging you for prioritizing wisdom, it’s how you seem to have such tunnel vision that it’s led you to wear some really bad pieces when there are more balanced options out there.

[Danth]

Good morning folks!

WhiteKnight, I notice you're not now claiming AC to be wholly broken. Thanks for ceasing that particular claim. We can happily debate how necessary it is, but whether armor works at a functional level isn't up for question.

Funny you mention 1200 display AC. I agree that's a nice baseline value to aim for, for group content in this era of the game. 1400 AC represents high-end raid loot which is both unnecessary and unrepresentative of what most folks achieve. Maybe I got thrown off by that gear set you linked earlier with its ~200 worn AC, which at 60 will fall into the 1050 to 1100 AC range with average buffs. I think you mentioned it's unfinished and a work in progress, so if you're aiming for that 1200ish value (which will require about 270 to 290 worn AC), then we're more or less on the same page after all.



Danth

[FatherSioux]

You play a Paladin to save the day and snuggle with hot elves. More mana = more saves = more snuggles.