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Old 09-17-2020, 11:17 AM
Castle2.0 Castle2.0 is offline
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Lightbulb Why every list change idea is terrible (as simple as possible)

There is a cost to camp a list item: time, attention, location.

Let's eliminate some ideas that are very unclassic and will never happen:
  • Change the item (make it better/worse, make it no drop, make it lore, etc. etc.)
  • Change the drop rate (make it easier/harder, make it drop 6 copies for all 6 people at top of list, etc etc.)
  • Make it drop off more mobs and/or make the spawn rate of the mob faster.
  • Make it randomly drop to 1 person in top 3, top 6, top 50, top 100, whatever. Staff will never put in a lottery system. It's unclassic in spirit.
  • Make the camp easier/harder. They aren't going to change mob/camp difficulty for 1 list item for the period of time it can be /listed.

These will never happen, and that's why these ideas suck.

So, you can't change the item stats, drop rate, spawn rate, or difficulty. The only thing left is player interest, attention (AFK checks) and location.

First, a simple, irrefutable economic fact that destroys every argument to make the list easier: price elasticity of demand

Quote:
Price elasticity of demand, is the degree to which the effective desire for something changes as its price changes. In general, people desire things less as those things become more expensive.
Disneyland tickets are $100. The most popular ride has a 1 hour wait time. If tickets were dropped by $50, more tickets will be sold, and the wait time in the line will increase, maybe by 30 minutes, 1 hour, maybe 2 hours. In either case, it will increase. This is exactly what will happen to list camps. Making the camp cheaper (easier) for YOU, also makes it cheaper (easier) for EVERYONE. It's like saying... "I can't afford a fungi at 60k. Give everyone 60k so we can all afford it." Speaking of Disney, do you even Duck Tales, bro?

What happens when there is ZERO cost (no afk check) to being in line for a list item? We saw this at AC camp. The list gets insanely long. Yes, many people just /listed to get on the list and didn't show up. But many people got on the list did actually camp all the way through. Instead of a list of 6-10, you have a list of 100+ (was it 150+?), but maybe 30-40 people not in top 10 go all the way through. This still means the "zero cost" makes the real wait time longer. Wow, it's like "free stuff" isn't free.

The same applies to location. Allowing people to /list from anywhere removes the opportunity cost of the camp - you'd be able to /list and then go exp, raid, etc. - and the "danger cost" of having to be physically present at the camp (if it's a dangerous camp.) This will similarly increase wait time.

Conclusion (aka the TL;DR):

You can't change the item stats, drop rate, spawn rate, difficulty of camp. Removing/reducing AFK checks or physical presence requirement will increase wait times proportionately. Your list idea sucks. Making it easier doesn't make it easier. Go join the "give everyone a [insert list item here]" group - you're just as bad.

Sorry, you won't get your list items for free/cheaper. Everyone wants them, and they will be limited in number. Welcome to Norrath and welcome to Life!
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2020, 01:06 PM
Tunabros Tunabros is offline
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I dont really understand what your point is
what do you mean by "get your list items for free/cheaper"
Are you saying we shouldn't change the game to make the list camp easier?
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:09 PM
Baler Baler is offline
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Kick people off the list if their IP Changes!
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:19 PM
Ivory Ivory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
[*]Change the drop rate (make it easier/harder, make it drop 6 copies for all 6 people at top of list, etc etc.)
They did this with guise though.... it was WAY more rare than normal during the /list.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:36 PM
douglas1999 douglas1999 is online now
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Yeah he's saying don't make it easier. Whether they actually made it rarer than usual during the /list period is irrelevant (and I don't think they did, that may just be in your head). Making it easier, as opposed to harder, is the critical point. Also seconding some kind of curtailing of account sharing\handoffs. I really like the /list system other than that one weakness.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:49 PM
drackgon drackgon is offline
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I don't always agree with Baler bc of his elf pal friends. But I actually 100% agree with him. If your toon changes IP address(which sucks bc I personally lost inet but was saved via hotspot), should be removed. The list wouldn't be nearly as long. You wouldn't have guilds paying dkp to sit on toons for Manastones. There is no way a player could of managed staying up 80+ hours, so list would cycle through much faster. And would give everyone an actual shot at it. Instead of a group of 5 friends all sharing their toons 5 times ina row.
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  #7  
Old 09-17-2020, 01:50 PM
Ivory Ivory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Making it easier doesn't make it easier.
If 100 fungi staffs drop... is instead 200 fungi staffs drop... it does make it easier.

You are trying to use some weird capitalist supply / demand logic acrobatics to explain why "making it easier doesn't make it easier"....

It's just crazy haha

Though, the real difference with list camps in kunark is going to be

1) The items aren't around for that long (so not time to level enough to be able to solo camp them so easily, let alone access to spells you would need)

2) Most of the camps aren't trivial (especially if you aren't a level 60 enchanter or something)

Like when rubi BP was dropping, there were times no one was down there.... because holding the camp wasn't super trivial (like holding the manastone camp was).
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2020, 01:53 PM
Izmael Izmael is offline
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Award the item randomly to one of the 6 first players on the list

Otherwise, the system is perfect and should be extended to Blue on many many camps and maybe even raid lewts (there's your custom content!).
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Old 09-17-2020, 02:01 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is online now
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I would prefer a guild dominates and sells loot rights at extremely high prices until nerf, but thats just me [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

fwiw I would not be in that guild [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] but it would be a lot funner and classic to read about in RNF than this stuff!
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2020, 02:57 PM
Castle2.0 Castle2.0 is offline
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Quote:
If 100 fungi staffs drop... is instead 200 fungi staffs drop... it does make it easier.

You are trying to use some weird capitalist supply / demand logic acrobatics to explain why "making it easier doesn't make it easier"....
You don't read, or basic economics and human behavior are just beyond you.

When things are easier/cheaper more people do/buy it. Do you believe more people would be at Disneyland if they cut their price in half to $50? Do you believe more people would mean longer waits in line?

If you can't wrap your mind around that, I'm not interested in discussing further. You don't even need to be an economist to get it. It's basic human behavior.

If Fungi stick is 2x more common, the "cost" to camp one is now less and it will draw in more people. Doubling the drop rate, will not decrease the wait time. Obviously there could be a slight increase or decrease because the curve is theoretical, but the change wouldn't be meaningful. The principle still holds true.

Quote:
Kick people off the list if their IP Changes!
WON'T WORK. They can share a VPN with a dedicated IP# or share a computer or VPS running EQ via Remote Desktop. Easy peezy. Like gun control, it doesn't help the average Joe - it only hurts him.

NEXT

Quote:
Award the item randomly to one of the 6 first players on the list
Average wait time will INCREASE. The lure of the lottery will draw in more people. "ZoMgZ i just need to b top 6 and I have a chanz to git it!" The drop rate and other factors won't change. It'll just be a random person gets it faster and a random person gets it slower. But average wait time will increase because stupid people are drawn to low-odds big pay-off RNG. Hence, we have $100M+ lotteries.
  • Isn't in the spirit of EQ
  • Won't decrease average wait time
  • Isn't inherently more "fair" by any measure
  • Due to RNG, it will cause a minority of people wait an INCREDIBLY long time (relative to others) which isn't a positive change from the already long lists. You could be #1, but lost the last 6 drops... Feelsbadman, feelsevenmoreunhealthyman.

NEXT!
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[50 Magician] Mannastone (Erudite) <Black Lotus>
[50 Enchanter] Beastlor (Dark Elf) <Black Lotus>


#1 DPS Character Serverwide (with video proof)
Server First Priest of Discord Solo Kill

Chief Choreographer of The Manadance™ (click for thread/video)
Re-Open Teal Server Thread (600+ YES signatures) - VOTE!
Creator of Largest Player Poll in P99 history

WTS Manastone 300k
Last edited by Castle2.0; 09-17-2020 at 03:18 PM..
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